My new enclosure

[faith]

Hey faith here could you tell me what size that enclosure is thanks. By the way yours looks really good.

 

[Evin]

change it often, and I mean very often.

That's a good point because a lot of people just scoop and sift the sand through not thinking of all the bacteria that is left. I do change my sand every week or so and in between i scoop the poo out right away with large amount of sand which is replaced with new sand (not sifted)

would cost me way to much money

That's true too thats the other reason why a lot of people choose tile or carpet. But hey.. thats the price you have to pay

Hey faith here could you tell me what size that enclosure is thanks. By the way yours looks really good.

It's L48"xW16"xH20"
Thanks

 

[Adamb]

Just a question not an attempt to offend or argue.

Does anyone know of cases were Adult Dragons have died from living on sand?

Are you saying sand can cause emediate death?

Or, that over time a dragon on sand will die sooner then one who is not?

And about the poo: how do you clean it up on sand, and how do u clean it up on tile or repti-carpet?
Do u use any kind of disinfectent? Or just water and a scooper?


THANKS!!!=)

 

[h0ndap0w3r]

This was interesting to read, so many people got so defensive so fast when some people are just trying to help you out. Yes they can get impacted from walnut shells, such was the case with the LEO that my mom has and was misinformed about which substrate to use. This almost resulted in his death, but we managed to save him.

I personally have my dragons on half sand half tile, they are not fed on the sand and they hardly ever poop on it, but is essentially up to the you the owner to decide what is best for your pets. since they cannot talk, cannot get out, cant do anything other then what is given to them. I see it as, if your going to own a pet, it is your responsibility to ensure they have the best living conditions you can afford to them. Also about the jumping off of things, most dragons move away from this as they get a lil older.

also you asked for comments, and when given it seems that you exploded on ppl. . .

 

[Elora]

I know that this topic is probably about to go inactive but id like to post something. the person that made this post probably wont see it but i feel strongly that bearded dragons shouldnot be housed on walnut shells. Sand seems just fine. Walnut shells is a different story. Here is an article i found about a bearded dragon that died from walnut shells

"This dissection is of a juvenile dragon that died due to impaction in late 2003. An owner brought this dragon to me long after the damage was done. Problems with the cloaca were noticed by the owner approximately one month prior to getting help. Even after warm baths to loosen the blockage, there was really nothing that could be done. The dragon passed away within 12 hours of being brought to me. I preserved the dragon until I was able to do the autopsy. I found that the intestine was filled with crushed walnut substrate"

This is graphic but i think that its worth it to help people understand

This is the stomach and intestine filled with walnut shells
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection50.JPG

Walnut shells cleaned out of the instestine
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection51.JPG

 

[h0ndap0w3r]

ewww that was kinda gross. . ..

 

[muzikfreakah]

I know that this topic is probably about to go inactive but id like to post something. the person that made this post probably wont see it but i feel strongly that bearded dragons shouldnot be housed on walnut shells. Sand seems just fine. Walnut shells is a different story. Here is an article i found about a bearded dragon that died from walnut shells

"This dissection is of a juvenile dragon that died due to impaction in late 2003. An owner brought this dragon to me long after the damage was done. Problems with the cloaca were noticed by the owner approximately one month prior to getting help. Even after warm baths to loosen the blockage, there was really nothing that could be done. The dragon passed away within 12 hours of being brought to me. I preserved the dragon until I was able to do the autopsy. I found that the intestine was filled with crushed walnut substrate"

This is graphic but i think that its worth it to help people understand

This is the stomach and intestine filled with walnut shells
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection50.JPG

Walnut shells cleaned out of the instestine
http://mrskingsbioweb.com/DragonDissection/dragondissection51.JPG

Just like lung cancer, sometimes you have to show people the actual rotten lung to really see whats going on. I am sure it was kinda hard to do this but I am glad you did so others can understand what impaction does to our dragons.

 

[MontysMom]

Guys, did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are different kinds/brands of walnut shell substrate, and that perhaps vast improvements have been made in recent years with regards to the digestibility/quality and size of the individual pieces? The beardie mentioned above in that dissection article died in 2003 - almost 6 years ago. Did it ever occur to you that the stuff being made and packaged now is not at all the same as what that beardie was housed on? And we also have no idea what kind of care that beardie was getting, perhaps he was being fed sticky feeders and was ingesting an inrodinate amount of substrate? Perhaps he wasn't being fed enough, and was picking at things in the substrate? I have horses, and I know in the horse world if horses are eating sand/dirt it's because there's vitamins/minerals lacking in their diet - and eating dirt/sand can cause colic. But nobody's going to go around telling you to keep your horses indoors on a big tiled floor because of this risk. :roll:

I keep my beardie on crushed walnut shells. Can't remember the name of the brand on the bag, but I bought it from these guys:
http://www.raysreptiles.com/ They're reptile rescuers/experts/breeders, and I spoke to the owner himself and he said they switched to this particular brand of crushed walnut shell 3 years ago and have not had single problem with bowel movements or impaction since - and they house, raise and sell an average of 15-20 beardies a year. They *used* to have them on sand, and had the odd problem with impaction every so often, but NO issues whatsoever since they switched to this type of substrate. After seeing their enclosures and their young and adult beardies, I can assure you they have some of the brightest, most active, perky, healthy-looking beardies around.

As for mine, I have had him for over 4 months now and he has pooped in his tank ONCE - and I saw it and removed it immediately. He only poops in the bath, he *prefers* to poop in the bath. When I feed him, I place his feeders on his clean, flat rock and he gobbles them up right away. His poops are always solid, uniformly dark brown, with white urates. No particles or undigested ANYthing in there. I've also seen him pick at his freshly misted greens, drop some on the substrate, pick up a piece that had some substrate on it and eat it, no problem.
I can certainly attest that with this particular brand of walnut shell, the pieces are TINY, about double the size of a large grain of salt, and fairly smooth/rounded. They're not going to tear up his intestines (LOL, sorry) anymore than the sharp hind legs of a large cricket would, or the jaws of a large hornworm.

I think this is something that may have been true 10 years ago, but I will tend to believe the local expert rescuer/zookeeper, who keeps, raises and breeds beardies on a large scale, than the average joe owner who has read too much on the Internet or heard horror stories passed down from generations of beardie owners. Sorry.

Off my soapbox.
This is my deathtrap, err, I mean, enclosure for my beardie (set-up is changed around now that I have a nice bright T-Rex MVB for him :mrgreen: ).
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/ASBJumper/Monty/?action=view&current=Monty-December085-ishmonthsold008.jpg

As you can see, he,s a perky, healthy little guy!
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/ASBJumper/Monty/?action=view&current=Monty-December085-ishmonthsold006.jpg

 

[Trogdor_1]

Guys, did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are different kinds/brands of walnut shell substrate, and that perhaps vast improvements have been made in recent years with regards to the digestibility/quality and size of the individual pieces? The beardie mentioned above in that dissection article died in 2003 - almost 6 years ago. Did it ever occur to you that the stuff being made and packaged now is not at all the same as what that beardie was housed on? And we also have no idea what kind of care that beardie was getting, perhaps he was being fed sticky feeders and was ingesting an inrodinate amount of substrate? Perhaps he wasn't being fed enough, and was picking at things in the substrate? I have horses, and I know in the horse world if horses are eating sand/dirt it's because there's vitamins/minerals lacking in their diet - and eating dirt/sand can cause colic. But nobody's going to go around telling you to keep your horses indoors on a big tiled floor because of this risk. :roll:
I have a horse too. And I do everything in my power to minimize the risk of my horse eating sand or dirt. He doesn't get feed on dirt, he doesn't go out in a dusty field, and he is treated with a digestive aid designed for sand colic issues. No, you can't move a horse off of the outdoors. But you can minimize the risk of sand colic. Same with a dragon. If something could be dangerous, I wouldn't risk it. And no, the size and shape of the walnut shell bedding hasn't changed in 6 years. It is still the same stuff.
I keep my beardie on crushed walnut shells. Can't remember the name of the brand on the bag, but I bought it from these guys:
http://www.raysreptiles.com/ They're reptile rescuers/experts/breeders, and I spoke to the owner himself and he said they switched to this particular brand of crushed walnut shell 3 years ago and have not had single problem with bowel movements or impaction since - and they house, raise and sell an average of 15-20 beardies a year. They *used* to have them on sand, and had the odd problem with impaction every so often, but NO issues whatsoever since they switched to this type of substrate. After seeing their enclosures and their young and adult beardies, I can assure you they have some of the brightest, most active, perky, healthy-looking beardies around.
The people you buy the bedding from raise 15-20 dragons a year? That's barely one clutch. I would be more likely to believe their claims about the bedding when they are raising 100+ babies a year and never have a problem with them.
As for mine, I have had him for over 4 months now and he has pooped in his tank ONCE - and I saw it and removed it immediately. He only poops in the bath, he *prefers* to poop in the bath. When I feed him, I place his feeders on his clean, flat rock and he gobbles them up right away. His poops are always solid, uniformly dark brown, with white urates. No particles or undigested ANYthing in there. I've also seen him pick at his freshly misted greens, drop some on the substrate, pick up a piece that had some substrate on it and eat it, no problem.
Just out of curiosty - if your not worried about the substrate causing problems, why do you not feed your dragon straight off of the walnuts? Why bother to put his food on a rock if the substrate is so safe? Plus, not all dragons go ONLY in their bath. All of mine go in their tanks. Only one actually poops in the tub.
I can certainly attest that with this particular brand of walnut shell, the pieces are TINY, about double the size of a large grain of salt, and fairly smooth/rounded. They're not going to tear up his intestines (LOL, sorry) anymore than the sharp hind legs of a large cricket would, or the jaws of a large hornworm.
As for the comparison between walnut shells and a cricket - crickets can be broken down by stomach acid a lot more readily than a walnut shell. Also, walnut shells build up in a dragon's intestines over a period of time. And yes, they can rip the intestines. Ask my vet. She treated a dragon who literally had a slice through his intestine with walnut shell both inside the intestine and in the abdominal cavity.
I think this is something that may have been true 10 years ago, but I will tend to believe the local expert rescuer/zookeeper, who keeps, raises and breeds beardies on a large scale, than the average joe owner who has read too much on the Internet or heard horror stories passed down from generations of beardie owners. Sorry.
Yea, its tough to believe people from all over who tell stories about their personal dragons and the negative impacts walnut shells had on their pet's health. Because zoo keepers are always right. Like the last dragon exhibit I saw - two underfed beardies in a tank with mulch/soil substrate, topical plants, and no UV light to be seen. Yep, their a great example. Or the "experts" who write the books that tell people to feed babies 5 crickets per day.

As for using walnut shells - you can do whatever you like. Its your animal. However, I would prefer to be 100% postive, without a doubt that my dragons can not possibly become imapcted due to sand or walnut shells. Rather safe than sorry - especially after the last rescue I took in ran me up $600 in vet bills due to - you guessed it - an impaction.

Off my soapbox.
This is my deathtrap, err, I mean, enclosure for my beardie (set-up is changed around now that I have a nice bright T-Rex MVB for him :mrgreen: ).
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/ASBJumper/Monty/?action=view&current=Monty-December085-ishmonthsold008.jpg

As you can see, he,s a perky, healthy little guy!
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/ASBJumper/Monty/?action=view&current=Monty-December085-ishmonthsold006.jpg

 

[muzikfreakah]

Frankly speaking, walnut is walnut, it wont dissolve in the stomach if they eat it. Maybe as adults it is a little ok, but for juvis, I still recommend not to use it.

 

[MontysMom]

Guys, did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are different kinds/brands of walnut shell substrate, and that perhaps vast improvements have been made in recent years with regards to the digestibility/quality and size of the individual pieces? The beardie mentioned above in that dissection article died in 2003 - almost 6 years ago. Did it ever occur to you that the stuff being made and packaged now is not at all the same as what that beardie was housed on? And we also have no idea what kind of care that beardie was getting, perhaps he was being fed sticky feeders and was ingesting an inrodinate amount of substrate? Perhaps he wasn't being fed enough, and was picking at things in the substrate? I have horses, and I know in the horse world if horses are eating sand/dirt it's because there's vitamins/minerals lacking in their diet - and eating dirt/sand can cause colic. But nobody's going to go around telling you to keep your horses indoors on a big tiled floor because of this risk. :roll:
I have a horse too. And I do everything in my power to minimize the risk of my horse eating sand or dirt. He doesn't get feed on dirt, he doesn't go out in a dusty field, and he is treated with a digestive aid designed for sand colic issues. No, you can't move a horse off of the outdoors. But you can minimize the risk of sand colic. Same with a dragon. If something could be dangerous, I wouldn't risk it. And no, the size and shape of the walnut shell bedding hasn't changed in 6 years. It is still the same stuff.
I keep my beardie on crushed walnut shells. Can't remember the name of the brand on the bag, but I bought it from these guys:
http://www.raysreptiles.com/ They're reptile rescuers/experts/breeders, and I spoke to the owner himself and he said they switched to this particular brand of crushed walnut shell 3 years ago and have not had single problem with bowel movements or impaction since - and they house, raise and sell an average of 15-20 beardies a year. They *used* to have them on sand, and had the odd problem with impaction every so often, but NO issues whatsoever since they switched to this type of substrate. After seeing their enclosures and their young and adult beardies, I can assure you they have some of the brightest, most active, perky, healthy-looking beardies around.
The people you buy the bedding from raise 15-20 dragons a year? That's barely one clutch. I would be more likely to believe their claims about the bedding when they are raising 100+ babies a year and never have a problem with them.
As for mine, I have had him for over 4 months now and he has pooped in his tank ONCE - and I saw it and removed it immediately. He only poops in the bath, he *prefers* to poop in the bath. When I feed him, I place his feeders on his clean, flat rock and he gobbles them up right away. His poops are always solid, uniformly dark brown, with white urates. No particles or undigested ANYthing in there. I've also seen him pick at his freshly misted greens, drop some on the substrate, pick up a piece that had some substrate on it and eat it, no problem.
Just out of curiosty - if your not worried about the substrate causing problems, why do you not feed your dragon straight off of the walnuts? Why bother to put his food on a rock if the substrate is so safe? Plus, not all dragons go ONLY in their bath. All of mine go in their tanks. Only one actually poops in the tub.
I can certainly attest that with this particular brand of walnut shell, the pieces are TINY, about double the size of a large grain of salt, and fairly smooth/rounded. They're not going to tear up his intestines (LOL, sorry) anymore than the sharp hind legs of a large cricket would, or the jaws of a large hornworm.
As for the comparison between walnut shells and a cricket - crickets can be broken down by stomach acid a lot more readily than a walnut shell. Also, walnut shells build up in a dragon's intestines over a period of time. And yes, they can rip the intestines. Ask my vet. She treated a dragon who literally had a slice through his intestine with walnut shell both inside the intestine and in the abdominal cavity.
I think this is something that may have been true 10 years ago, but I will tend to believe the local expert rescuer/zookeeper, who keeps, raises and breeds beardies on a large scale, than the average joe owner who has read too much on the Internet or heard horror stories passed down from generations of beardie owners. Sorry.
Yea, its tough to believe people from all over who tell stories about their personal dragons and the negative impacts walnut shells had on their pet's health. Because zoo keepers are always right. Like the last dragon exhibit I saw - two underfed beardies in a tank with mulch/soil substrate, topical plants, and no UV light to be seen. Yep, their a great example. Or the "experts" who write the books that tell people to feed babies 5 crickets per day.

As for using walnut shells - you can do whatever you like. Its your animal. However, I would prefer to be 100% postive, without a doubt that my dragons can not possibly become imapcted due to sand or walnut shells. Rather safe than sorry - especially after the last rescue I took in ran me up $600 in vet bills due to - you guessed it - an impaction.

Off my soapbox.
This is my deathtrap, err, I mean, enclosure for my beardie (set-up is changed around now that I have a nice bright T-Rex MVB for him :mrgreen: ).
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/ASBJumper/Monty/?action=view&current=Monty-December085-ishmonthsold008.jpg

As you can see, he,s a perky, healthy little guy!
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/ASBJumper/Monty/?action=view&current=Monty-December085-ishmonthsold006.jpg

LOL.. so let me get this straight, instead of feeding a balanced vit/min supplement to your horse, analyzing your hay and feeding a good complete feed to avoid any nutritional imbalance that might cause him to want to eat dirt/sand in the first place, you feed him up off the ground and give him a "digestive aid" in case he does eat any sand?? That makes no sense whatsoever!

And this place I buy the substrate from - they breed a few but most of the dragons they have in one year are rescues. They're also not very big and I would certainly worry about space if they were breeding anymore than that. LOL, again, your comment makes no sense - saying you wouldn't trust them because they raise a few rather than tons? That's like saying you'd trust a puppy mill owner who produces 50 puppies in a year over a caring breeder who produces 10-12 puppies a year and takes really good care of them. Jeebus... :lol:
Like I said, this particular place had beautiful, big healthy, vibrant beardies who were running around the big tank (one arm-waved at me! soo cute!), they had a big bowl full of fresh mixed greens and veggies in one corner and bright lighting and I think I saw one or two piles of poo in the tank which had 4 juvies in it. The older beardie's tank was spotless and he too had a big bowl of fresh, yummy-looking greens. He was happily basking under his light, looking fit and healthy. These people clearly know what they're doing and care about their animals.

And I Googled imaged "crushed walnut shell*, and right away I saw two examples of stuff that looked comPLETEly different. One looked like small, jagged pieces of mulch-like stuff, the other looked like finely beaded stuff, like what I use. Sorry, but it's not sharp. It's really not. And it's tiny. And the reason I feed him on the rock is the same reason I don't eat off the ground. Just because I don't think dust dunnies and grit would kill me, doesn't mean I necessarily WANT anything mixed in with my food. Plus, the smaller worms tend to want to burrow in the substrate and he seems to grab onto them easier with his tongue when they're on a flat surface. I wouldn't feed him off his wooden log, either.

I'll go so far as to agree that if he ingested a fair amount of the stuff on a regular basis, then definitely I could see it leading to digestive issues, but with proper husbandry that just doesn't happen. He probably ingests one or two tiny particles once in a blue moon. And the size of one particle of my bedding is about half the size of his eyeball. Tiny.

I also have a reputable herp vet. He's been treating reptiles for over 15 years. Seen countless beardies. When I told him what substrate I was using, he said that was fine.

Everyone is going to have a strong opinion based on personal experience, it's human nature. Let me guess - are you one of those crazy "never turn out a horse in a nylon halter" people? Because the only scary experience I've had with a horse pulling back, freaking out and the halter NOT breaking was with a good quality LEATHER halter. The snap on the lead shank broke before the halter did. I turn all my horses out in loose, lightweight nylon halters - they either break, and I replace them, or they slip off, and I retrieve them.

To each their own!

 

[Trogdor_1]

Lol. To adress the horse stuff... when you live in Fl - when horses practically live on nothing but sand and dirt (because that, essentially, is what our soil is made of) - you do NOT feed your horse on sand or dirt. Its just common sense. My horse gets free choice T&A, quality grain, and free choice minerals. But regaurdless of the quality of hay, if you dump it on a sand pit, your horse will eat sand when picking up the last bits of hay. It will happen. And, over time, it will cause sand colic. Again, common sense. So why would I not put his hay on the grass rather than on the sandy part of his pasture to limit the risk of him eating dirt?
And no, I would never ever turn my horse out in a nylon halter. Thats an accident waiting to happen. A nylon halter will not break - ever. Nor would I want a halter on my horse that just "slips off" - which defeats the purpose if its not actually on the horse. Come to think of it, turning a horse out with any halter on is just asking for trouble.

As for the rescuer you know - you never said if the dragons were being bred or being rescued. From a breeder's perspective, I would be more inclined to believe someone who has had 100+ babies on walnut shells and has NEVER had a problem. This is showing, in a very easy experiment, that out of 100+ trials (ie. babies on walnut shells), not one animal became impacted. To me, that means more than "I keep my twenty dragons on it and haven't had a problem yet". That is not the same as trusting a puppy mill over a breeder of only one litter per year. Dog breeding and bearded dragon breeding are very different. One breeding of a female dragon can produce (at the minimum) 3 clutches of eggs. Which means, one female dragon can have over 60 babies in a year. So you can't only raise 15 babies unless you either bought the babies or the other clutches from your female didn't hatch.

At any rate, I'm done arguing the walnut shell thing. If you want to take chances with your dragon's health, then go for it. But no matter how smooth or small or wonderful your bedding may be - it is NOT digestable. As I said before, I would rather know with out a doubt that my dragons cannot become impacted by their substrate. Its just not a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[slantedii]

Im sorry... but isnt this beardeddragon.org? not horsehalters.org? lol, it seems hard to compare a horse eating sand compared to a beardie eating sand...first thing, the sand is like 100 times bigger (maybe a bit exaggerated) compared to a beardie. I dont have any experience with a beardie on loose substrate, so maybe i shouldnt be posting ( i will anyway), but with as many people who feel so fervently about not doing it, there must be some truth to it. Ur crushed walnut shells look way different than the ones i normally see, and may be perfectly fine for your dragon...but if it is newly developed ( like you seemed to describe) wouldnt you want to wait until the substrate has been through testing, or has at least been used for a while without any incidents? I mean, if there were some brand new purple colored calci-sand that looked awesome and "didnt cause problems" i would wait for other people to try it first.
On second thought...i take it all back, keep doing what ur doing, cuz ur the "other people". Let us know how it all works out in 5 yrs.

 

[MontysMom]

Ur crushed walnut shells look way different than the ones i normally see,

Bingo. And yet Trogdor is adamant that it's all the same. Google Image "crushed walnut shells", and you'll see what I mean. There are many different products out there bearing the same name.
And am I the only one whose beardie doesn't go around munching on his substrate? Unless I feed him a wet worm that rolls around and gets covered in it and he eats it, why would he be ingesting substrate?? I feed him outside his tank on my black leather couch (good contrast for visibility) or on his flat rock - that's it. He's also extremely good at gingerly picking out pieces of greens and only once in a while do I see a few small pieces of leaf on the substrate next to the bowl, and I pick them out and throw them away. It's also up against the back of his tank next to the entrance to his hide, so he can't really tromp through/over it and get food everywhere either.

One last thing, Trogdor - here's something that most people forget when they're told "nylon doesn't break" - NEWSFLASH, the material ITSELF doesn't, but the stitching required to attach said material to the metal rings that form the corners of a halter DOES break. The cheaper the halter, the easier the stitching comes apart (if the horse actually gets seriously caught, that is). And bonus - they're light and don't rub. :wink:
I have never had an issue with a halter in turnout. I HAVE had issues with my horses jumping out of their paddock (twice) and even escaping off the property (part of fence got damaged in a snowstorm). In both instances I'll bet the people who had to catch the horses were DARN glad they had them cheap nylon halters on!!! :mrgreen:

 

[slantedii]

i think you missed my point...but maybe that IS the point, lol. Cheers.