Unbelievable!Thats why u SHOULDNT listen to petstore people

[zandi202]

Beardies won't always drink during baths. For the most part they absorb and hydrate through their vents. Jace used to drink in his bath but stopped.

 

[Momomo]

Props to LLLReptiles, I was waiting for your comment, and I must say great post!! Very precise, polite and to the point. I agree people have different opinions on proper care of animals and these opinions should not be bashed and disrespected if they are well-argued. Of course there are some people that do the completely wrong thing, where its obvious that a dragon will suffer. Then it can get frustrating. But I don't think that's the case with LLLReptiles. One thing I want to mention about this forum (not saying its a bad thing necessarily): I've been on this site long enough to notice that many people on here repeat a lot of the same stuff/care suggestions after the more experienced owners. They are like parrots, they saw it somewhere and keep repeating it. Only difference is that experienced owners on here can actually justify their recommendations, compared to the people who just repeat after them. I think people will trust a recommendation if its justified/from experience, instead of the "it has to be like that and no other way, JUST BECAUSE, and if you don't do it, you are stupid" kind of argument. Anyway, I will stop here, if I offended anyone, I apologize in advance, just wanted to put that out there since we are on the topic of "bad advice".

 

[GlueStick]

Very well said LLLReptile, I couldn't agree with you more (and I've ordered a many thing or two from you guys over the years). Thank you for the great selection in supplies!

I certainly agree with most aspects of your recommendations and love referencing some of your other videos.

Hi everyone!

You all much prefer tile; I do not. I feel it is more work to maintain and wipe and sanitize tile (carpet being worse - as it absorbs urine, fecal matter, and easily breeds bacteria on and within its surface). The way I often describe this to customers is to ask them if they'd like to live in a house where everyone pooped on the floor - but the floor is wiped down and cleaned every day. Yes, you can bleach it, and wash it, but I know I would not want to live on the same surface that feces is repeatedly being deposited on, nor would I want my animals to live on it either. For this reason, I much, much prefer a particle bedding not just for beardies, but for all herps in my care.

I still cannot however agree with your argument of loose substrates as there are too many cons (joint stress, impaction, respiratory complications, bacterial infections, etc) to pros (more natural, helps with digging behaviors,etc) with using them when compared to more solid substrates, even with other species of reptiles. Loose substrates harbor oodle amounts of bacteria, so stating that changing the particular areas that they've deposited in is much cleaner than say, removing a paper towel and wiping the area, hosing down and/or placing a repticarpet in the washing machine, or removing the particular tile a dragon has deposited on and soaking and cleaning that tile is not, in my opinion, very sanitary. It may be true that the feces was removed in the area of substrate, but fluid is still left behind and left to harbor, unless of course with each fecal pass or spill of the water bowl or waterfall addition most if not all substrate is removed and sanitized, leaving the reptile owner with more maintenance and financial loss with the repeated purchase of substrate. So I guess I am coming from a more safe and financial standpoint (this being important in our current economy), especially after experiencing my own personal issues with a short term use in loose substrate and a longterm vet bill accumulation of $2k and a few years of diminished bearded dragon quality of life. I am of course only speaking of the topic of loose substrate use with bearded dragons, not all reptiles.

-Glue

 

[LLLReptile]

Very well said LLLReptile, I couldn't agree with you more (and I've ordered a many thing or two from you guys over the years). Thank you for the great selection in supplies!

I certainly agree with most aspects of your recommendations and love referencing some of your other videos.

Hi everyone!

You all much prefer tile; I do not. I feel it is more work to maintain and wipe and sanitize tile (carpet being worse - as it absorbs urine, fecal matter, and easily breeds bacteria on and within its surface). The way I often describe this to customers is to ask them if they'd like to live in a house where everyone pooped on the floor - but the floor is wiped down and cleaned every day. Yes, you can bleach it, and wash it, but I know I would not want to live on the same surface that feces is repeatedly being deposited on, nor would I want my animals to live on it either. For this reason, I much, much prefer a particle bedding not just for beardies, but for all herps in my care.

I still cannot however agree with your argument of loose substrates as there are too many cons (joint stress, impaction, respiratory complications, bacterial infections, etc) to pros (more natural, helps with digging behaviors,etc) with using them when compared to more solid substrates, even with other species of reptiles. Loose substrates harbor oodle amounts of bacteria, so stating that changing the particular areas that they've deposited in is much cleaner than say, removing a paper towel and wiping the area, hosing down and/or placing a repticarpet in the washing machine, or removing the particular tile a dragon has deposited on and soaking and cleaning that tile is not, in my opinion, very sanitary. It may be true that the feces was removed in the area of substrate, but fluid is still left behind and left to harbor, unless of course with each fecal pass or spill of the water bowl or waterfall addition most if not all substrate is removed and sanitized, leaving the reptile owner with more maintenance and financial loss with the repeated purchase of substrate. So I guess I am coming from a more safe and financial standpoint (this being important in our current economy), especially after experiencing my own personal issues with a short term use in loose substrate and a longterm vet bill accumulation of $2k and a few years of diminished bearded dragon quality of life. I am of course only speaking of the topic of loose substrate use with bearded dragons, not all reptiles.

-Glue

4

Ah, but loose substrates can and should be replaced at least every couple months, if not more often. How often do people replace tile? Is the tile and carpet being truly sanitized, or just washed/wiped down?

What joint issues are you referring to with loose substrates? I have never heard of joint issues being claimed; I am interested in reading any studies you've seen on the issue. Since I do go through the forums, I get to find a lot of helpful information I share with other employees. I know the staff member who studies herp medicine on the side would LOVE to read an article like that. Share if you have it!

Your situation is a special case; impaction can and does happen in freak accidents (I've seen some rather scary cases of snakes becoming impacted ingesting substrate ), and you can argue about it endlessly. You make excellent points, but I also see too often lazy keepers or lack of good sanitation with tile or carpet. I have seen people come in with some FOUL carpet with their beardies - the same carpet they got years before and never replaced. Sure, a loose substrate probably would have been dirty too, but I highly doubt they'd have kept the same sanichips for two years and not replaced them. Encountering those kinds of issues, combined with my lack of issues over thousands of animals compared to your one, is why I continue to recommend loose substrate. There are dedicated, loving keepers like yourself and many on this forum who will take the time to properly clean and sanitize their tile/carpet, but there are far, far more who will not dedicate that kind of effort to maintaining high standards of cleanliness for a lizard - in the interests of ensuring those beardies also live in a clean environment, a solution is to encourage use of a substrate that is exceptionally easy to spot clean, and clearly requires routine replacement.

Not downplaying your issue; but again, we can both continue to make the same points endlessly. You had a bad experience with loose substrate, mine is good - I don't think either of us are likely to change our minds. I feel we have both made our points well, though. If I could figure out the rest of the emoticons, I'd give you the hand clappy one!

And to the others who have since chimed in - thank you as well

-Jen

 

[OneBigDude]

Hi everyone!

I'm the one who made the video, and I'd like to clear up a few things.

First and foremost, the bedding - as I state in the video, everyone has preferences, many prefer tile or carpet, I personally much prefer sani chips. I feel they are much easier to keep clean and in general much more sanitary because you are completely removing any substrate that comes into contact with fecal matter. They do not cause impactions in animals that are housed properly - my 5+ years of experience working with thousands of bearded dragons at the store(s) tells me this, as do many local breeders, including a staff member who's been breeding beardies for the last 10+ years. I'm not just recommending it because it's there, it's my experience with a large sample size of animals that helps me with my recommendations. You all much prefer tile; I do not. I feel it is more work to maintain and wipe and sanitize tile (carpet being worse - as it absorbs urine, fecal matter, and easily breeds bacteria on and within its surface). The way I often describe this to customers is to ask them if they'd like to live in a house where everyone pooped on the floor - but the floor is wiped down and cleaned every day. Yes, you can bleach it, and wash it, but I know I would not want to live on the same surface that feces is repeatedly being deposited on, nor would I want my animals to live on it either. For this reason, I much, much prefer a particle bedding not just for beardies, but for all herps in my care.

The waterfall. Again, this is a matter of personal preference. I have helped keepers with beardies that have issues drinking - and I also state in the video if you are concerned about humidity, only run the waterfall for an hour or so a day. Not only have I used waterfalls in the store with excellent success, especially for younger beardies, but I have several friends and customers who also utilize them and love that their beardies will run right over to the waterfall and drink. As pointed out by other members, with the heat lights and the screen top cage, it is extremely unlikely that the humidity would rise to a level that would cause a problem for the beardies. As I have pointed out on this forum before, many keepers of tropical species of reptiles struggle immensely just to keep humidity between 40 and 60% with just a low wattage heat bulb and a heat pad - adding the kind of heat and low-moisture substrate common for use with beardies is going to keep humidity extremely low. The fact that beardies often need to be soaked to ensure they are getting adequate moisture is one indication that they are actually probably being kept TOO dry, if anything. The staff member who breeds bearded dragons studies herpetological medicine, and his observations in the chronic dehydration common in beardies is one reason so many of us now use and recommend waterfalls.

I disagree about packing the cage with too much stuff, personally. There are large pieces of wood for the beardies to climb, and the person who purchased that setup and took it home raves about how their beardies clamber all over everything in the cage. I often see bland, boring cages with little in them and a bored, fat beardie sitting under the light. Beardies should have the option to climb things and exercise, which can prolong their life and enrich their lives beyond simply sitting in the cage.

Again, as has been pointed out by others, there are many different preferences for caring for beardies. I personally disagree with the advice given on this forum from time to time - for the reasons I've stated.

I create these videos to help answer questions we commonly get asked on our pages, in our stores, and phone calls, and do extensive amounts of community outreach, girlscout tours, boyscout presentations (I will be helping at the local Boy Scout Fair next month, in fact) and the sole reason I post on forums is to help others out. My entire job is community outreach, pretty much, and the reaction we were getting on the videos of responding to the various comments and repeating the same comments over and over again were not beneficial or constructive. If posters would like to add respectful, considerate comments to the videos, we'll leave those up. I believe there are some older comments talking about tile and reptile carpet being preferred which we left up - as they were respectful and simply stating a difference of opinion. Posting absolutes and all caps blasting me and the video are naturally going to be deleted, not just by myself but by the other internet manager.

I spend a lot of time trying to help people - the setup in that video has happily housed two beardies in it since it was made, and from the phone calls, emails, and posts we get, there are many, many people who found the video helpful for their situations. I have extensive experience with reptiles - I personally keep and breed a few dozen species, and help manage our breeding center. While I understand that many of you feel very strongly about beardie care, please consider that I speak from experience with a much, much larger base of reptiles and beardies in general, while many keepers only have a handful of animals. I know the problems and questions I commonly get, and many of my videos are geared towards these commonly asked questions.

So can we agree to disagree, and continue this discussion in a more reasonable tone?

-Jen

Very well thought out response. Always good to see an opposing view point and the explanation behind it

 

[Brandonforty2]

My comment was deleted and I was too lazy to re type it here because I was on my tablet. I have a keyboard now. I can't remember it too well but I think it was something like this.

I liked this video. I saw three mistakes. One, if you have two beardies for breeding, they should only be together until the deed is done. Two, sand shouldn't be used as a substrate, and three...(I cant remember three but it was something small). I like the idea of the waterfall. She did say that it should only be on for one hour. This was a good video.

That is close to my comment. There are some things that I would like to say about the comment. This isn't a breeding video but someone might here that this will be good for a male and a female and then the female will die from stress. Just trying to save from someone who would do that. I agree, the substrate is up to you but you shouldn't put a baby on sand. For some odd reason, some of them spend their childhood licking the ground. I cannot remember the third one; their might not even be a third one.

Those comments in all caps were un neccesary (sorry bad speller). I was this close (well you can't see how close but it is around the space between your beardies eyes) from mentioning it.

Very good video. One of the best that I have seen.

 

[GlueStick]

Ah, but loose substrates can and should be replaced at least every couple months, if not more often. How often do people replace tile? Is the tile and carpet being truly sanitized, or just washed/wiped down?

What joint issues are you referring to with loose substrates? I have never heard of joint issues being claimed; I am interested in reading any studies you've seen on the issue. Since I do go through the forums, I get to find a lot of helpful information I share with other employees. I know the staff member who studies herp medicine on the side would LOVE to read an article like that. Share if you have it!

Your situation is a special case; impaction can and does happen in freak accidents (I've seen some rather scary cases of snakes becoming impacted ingesting substrate ), and you can argue about it endlessly....

This is true that you can argue this topic endlessly, but I was not arguing... or being abrupt. I was simply stating that with the chance, one small chance that may end with such significant consequences, then why take the chance?

You state that you should replace substrate every couple of months? Please, educate me on how sanitary that situation is? I shouldn't have to replace tile if I am soaking and disinfecting them appropriately, as they are not a complete porous compound as a loose substrate can be and that should otherwise be replaced completely as a loose compound. Carpets were designed specifically as a safer option and they were designed as just that, but as you stated, with negligence, any substrate can have its consequences.

What joint issues am I referring to? It seems as people put two animals together to do what naturally occurs with little skill and produce offspring and make a living for so long that people forget what their natural habitat looks like and how they function with it. They do not appear to live where sand is heavy, like the first sand you walk across when you enter a beach, but instead a habitat of mixed, variable, organic compounds. Do you not remember how tired you feel or achy your joints can feel when walking across that heavy sand to the stable shoreline where you so neatly set up your chairs? Imagine living on that all of the time. Ecosystems are variable, as are the relationships animals have with it and each other. This is the basis of ecology. Dragons are not forced to walk on this heavy sand in nature because they live in areas of compacted soils/sands containing variable vegetation. I'm not entirely sure what breeders you are referring to, but most breeders probably wouldn't use loose substrates for the risk it may have on their profit and quality of animals (not to mention how costly and time consuming it would be to house ALL of their dragons on loose substrate - it just wouldn't make sense). I do know that most breeders recommend housing them on sand when dragons are older, if owners so wish, but to wait when they are past a year in age.

Now, as someone who has also worked in the pet industry for many years also and is currently finishing a 2nd degree, I've had first hand to see many of these 'freak accidents' take more common place with many owners who were told calci-sand/chips/bark/walnut shell were safe, as well as recommending that two dragons can live harmoniously together in such an inappropriate tank size, only to experience the demise of their pet. ESPECIALLY when most clientele are new to the reptile world and are purchasing their first pet. To see this so many times has disheartened me, so I am not biased by my own personal experience. To contrast, my female dragon has never been put on a loose substrate nor has she been housed with my male and she has never needed to go to the vet. But maybe I'm just a loving, caring pet owner?

But I digress.... I will not argue a never ending point any further. As I've stated before, I do like your videos and I do purchase from LLLReptile occasionally (and will continue to - actually want to stock up on those bamboo roots).

-Glue

 

[lillylizard]

I can't believe this! People are stupid! Grrrrr

 

[morphmom]

Hmmm... Now, this is an interesting topic.
Waterfall: If humidity allows, then I don't see an issue, however, I will say that it is extremely difficult to sanitize a waterfall as you can't take the pump for them completely apart. (for obvious reasons) We had a top of the line fountain for our cats (same concept) and it didn't take long before a lovely slime and Oder showed up. This was with proper care, water, and a filter system. I would personally be very leery about a waterfall system for these reasons.
Décor: If properly supported, I see no issue why baby beardies can't take advantage of climbing a multitude of options. I did however have to go through the video twice as the hollow cork log concerned me. I'm not sure how the baby would get out if he/she were to fall in. They're great climbers but I don't see why a set up should allow for the option of falling and potentially not being able to get out. I question the option, not the cork it's self.
Food Choices: Mealworms. With the wide range of feeder options available, I question why this feeder was mentioned. Impaction due to this feeder may be rare but I question why anyone would take any risk at all.
Substrate: Not all tile harbors bacteria in the same way. A porous tile like natural slate is more likely to then a sealed ceramic, however, it is near impossible to remove the mess completely with loose substrate as the animal runs though it the same as they would tile or carpet. Bacteria is very likely to be a "threat" in both cases.
-In regards to the comment about eating off of a floor that has had a mess on it but then cleaned, my opinion is gladly. I would much rather take my chances with my kitchen floor then a mouth full of wood. Also, I can guarantee that no feeders live under my kitchen floor but my super worms would thrive in loose substrate. In short, I see no pros to any loose substrate but the risk of impaction and lost feeders is a true con.
Housing: I love that terrarium and endorse it frequently, however I completely disagree with the foam background. I ripped it out and tossed it away without a second thought. Pieces break off and could then be ingested, and it is not sealed. How on earth do you sanitize unsealed Styrofoam if your animal contracts a parasite? How do you scrub off dried mess when it falls apart? Why would anyone provide a space for feeders to hide? This style of background is unnecessary.
-All in all, this video was not a complete fail, but I wouldn't class it as a complete success. Perhaps, a script and a rehearsal would have produced a more professional endorsement?
-Also, it is up to the individual to be aware of the products they buy and use. I use sewn flannel for a substrate. Warm, slip resistant, great esthetics and it stands up to 100's of washes. Bacteria doesn't stand a chance :wink:

 

[therock777]

People just don't research before they buy and will find out the hard way. Only thing that bothers me is a beardie has to suffer because of it. Do the research people before you buy a cute baby beardie at petsmart or any pet store. Before you buy a reptigro or a Zilla UVB tube and mealworms see if its ok to do so. If you type beardeddragon on any search engine this site is first and always has been. Same gos for any other reptile. Being prepared is not bad it's good and helps down the road. Because you always have a change a beardie or any reptile having issues. I took care of the basics and my beardie hurt his leg all on his own. Things happen just use your brain before you do your heart. Kids mainly adults should know better.
Not saying a waterfall is completely bad for a beardie. But makes sense have the humidity to worry about and bacteria growing just like fish tanks do. Benefit is to give a beardie something to drink from yea water is good but bacteria will make them ill.

I am willing to help any beginner with beardies am just a email or pm away. I would even post my phone number but have 550 minutes so am sorry for that. Just remember a beardie is a huge responablity just as much as a puppy and most reptiles are. Not sure on turtles and frogs but its a word of mouf.
I love beardies and reptiles and a slave to them my girls are doing wonderful other then my boy. Just wish others could be the same yea pet stores with baby dragons fighting inside the tanks.