Possible signs of MBD? Update w pic.

[Ethelia]

Hello all,

Im concerned about my little girl Miso.

Backstory:

Miso was a very bizarre baby in the fact that she would ONLY eat salad and would not hunt or even entertain protein.
I tried roaches, locust and crickets with absolutely no response (I tried feeding in her viv and out). The most I got from her was that she ate one cricket... then decided she wasnt interested.
You put some salad down and POW its gone.
I found I had SOME luck with butterworms. I could coax her into eating 3-4 large (for her size) butterworms a day, by wiggling and jiggling them at her for about 10 minutes a piece. She would only eat the larger butters but luckily she had no bowel issues with them.
I recently found a supplier of pheonix worms (im in the UK) and to my joy she started to eat! I have her on about 20 small pheonix's a day.
Now this may not be alot to some of you but for a girl who wont eat bugs, its awesome!
She has been accepting pheonix's for 5 days in a row now.

Previous to this new feeder I (along with butterworms and salad with vitamins) I would feed her chicken and squash babyfood with calcium mixed in twice a week to keep up her protien and calcium levels.

She is very active, no stress marks, basks, eats, climbs and plays daily.

The Problem:

Due to her refusal of protein Miso has remained small. At 3+ months she is only 10.5 inches. However recently I have noticed that she is standing/walking oddly.
Miso walks with her front right foot pointing noticably inward (as apposed to her other front foot which points slightly outwards or straight forward). I was worrying that this might be the beginings of MBD?

Is this infact a hint at MBD?
Is there anything you can suggest I do?



My set up:

How old is your dragon? around 3-4 months
How long have you had your dragon? 3 months
How long is your dragon? 10.5 inches
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 60gallon wide vivarium
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? slate
Do you use UVB lights? yes
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? tube
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)? JBL Reptil-Sun
(this is a new bulb availiable in the UK from germany. I tested it with a hand-held UV output reader at the store and it was bang on what it should be. I can ofc buy another bulb if you suspect this may be the case) (Miso also gets around 3 hours a week under a MegaRay MVB stolen from Rubens viv)
How old is your UVB bulb? 3 months
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? 6 inches
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? Yes, 40w spotlight
What are the basking temps? 113 by noon
What is the cool side temp? 80
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? digital with probe
What do you feed your dragon? Pheonix worms. Salad of rocket/endive/escarole/squash/beans/blueberries
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them? Dragon Dust vits on veg twice a week. Calcium via babyfood twice a week and high calcium feeders (pheonix)
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? daily.
Do you bath your dragon? How often? daily.
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? no.
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? yes when we brought her home.



So guys, once again.

Is this infact a hint at MBD?
Is there anything you can suggest I do?


Holly

Oh and here is the star of our show:

 

[Jiffy]

Holly, I dont know it those are signs or not.
But Miso is so darn cute, so I figured I would bump up your post!
Hope the little girl is just fine.

 

[pscaulkins]

The walking oddly could be a sign. Do you see any twitches? Twitching is a sign of MBD.

Also wanted to say what a cute beardie you have!!

 

[Drache613]

Hello Holly,

She is very cute.
The JBL tube light, what is the UVB reading, at what distance does it project? How far do you have it from her? Is there a screen in between the light & her, or a plastic lens cover over the tube light?
Did you dust the greens & veggies with calcium since she was not eating many bugs when she was younger?
I think, that you should probably consider getting some liquid calcium to get her levels up before she starts having more trouble. She probably just has not had enough calcium for her age, since they do grow rapidly at younger ages.
The dragon dust is fine for a vitamin, but she needs more calcium dusting than 2 times per week. Great that she is eating the higher calcium feeders the phoenix worms now, but I honestly think that she probably still needs more right now to help make up for lost time.
Does her jaw appear solid currently?

Tracie

 

[Ethelia]

Hi guys,
Thank you for responding.

Twitching wise there is definatly none.
Her jaw does appear strong and she chomps through crunchy veg without issue.

I did the test at the store with their hand held meter, and im embarresed to say i cannot remember the reading. It was however similar to the repti-sun tube that I also tested at the store (they humour me and allow me to play with things). I took a reading at about 8 inches.
Miso has hers at about 6 inches distance from her at all times. There is no screen in her viv so nothing is blocked.
I feel foolish for trusting a light that may not have been the best I could get.
I cant fit an MVB into the viv and get the 12" clearance so Im going to go ahead and order an Arcadia today.

I am now dusting her veg with calcium, however ive had to build it up very very slowly. If I put any on her veg to begin with she would refuse to eat any, and considering her only diet was greens I tended to give in and let her have plain greens.
Over the last 3 weeks as she is becoming less fussy I have been slowly increasing the amounts of calcium ive been dusting with (i started off with a miniscule amount). Today infact was the first day she has accepted "properly dusted" veg.
I will definatly look into the liquid calcium. However in the UK we have much more limited supplies than you in the US.
How much would I give her as a dose?

I really hope I can find some online.

Very distressed that Ive let her down.
Holly

EDIT:
I have found both T-Rex Solar Drops and T-Rex Bone Aid.
Are both or either ok?

 

[EclpsPrinc]

You can purchase the liquid Calcium Glubionate from the Beautiful Dragons store http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Meds.html. Make sure you purchase some syringes from there, as well. Dosage is .1cc per 100 grams of bodyweight. One word of caution with the liquid calcium... your baby will need an adequate amount of D3 to process the calcium so you may want to consider purchasing an MVB bulb and replace the tube. Or if your weather allows, take her out daily to absorb the natural rays of the sun. Keep her WELL hydrated while on liquid calcium too. By the way, your little girl is such a cute little punk!

 

[Ethelia]

Thank you for the kind input but alas I am in the UK.

 

[EclpsPrinc]

Veronica from the Beautiful Dragon store does ship internationally

 

[MissT]

There is also 'Zolcal-D' by vetark but im not too sure what it is.

The solar drops are more like a uvb replacement... apparently uvb in a bottle so I would stay away from those!

The T-rex bone aid liquid seems to be the most commonly used/suggested liquid calcium on any UK forums I have visited if thats any help??

 

[Ethelia]

Thank you all.
I passed over ordering from the US for speed

I have ordered an Arcadia 12% (higher output than my current bulb) and T-Rex Bone Aid drops. You were right Miss T, the bone aid seems to be the favoured UK product.

How long with this new lighting and supplimentation should I expect to start seeing the benefits?
I ask because I am prepared to switch her into Rubens viv with his MegaRay if neccisary, but obviously switching both habitats isnt ideal for two grumpy lizards so it would be as "last resort".

Holly

 

[sunkist]

I still think her size is some what okay. Jilly who I rescued at probably 2 months didn't start his growth spurt until he hit about 4 months old. Same for Lindy. I swear that boy stayed right at about 10 inches until he hit 5 months old.

 

[Ethelia]

Hi guys, I finally got a picture of Miso and her foot.
Its a poor quality shot, but shows you how she holds her right foot inwards.

She can stand on it straight, and does so when she's running, but at rest this is how she likes to hold it.
Does this still look MBD related?
Ive applied pressure to it and it doesnt seem to bother her in the slightest. There also doesnt seem to be any swelling.
She has had the 12% Arcadia UVB bulb and has had a healthy dose of calcium every day for two weeks now and has shown no improvement in her foot.

On another positive note she has finally given in and is eating protein like a champ.
In her first week eating roaches she grew a whole half inch!

Holly

 

[Drache613]

Hello Holly,

So how long has she been holding her foot like this? Her foot was not angled inward initially, correct?
If it is a recent thing, it has probably been going that way for awhile. Sometimes when they have low calcium & metabolic bone disease, it will get a little worse before it starts to stop & reverse unfortunately.
Remember, reptiles get sick slowly, so slowly that alot of times we do not notice until they are very ill. So it takes them at least that long to get better, if not longer than that to fully recover.
She looks great, & appears to be improving alot! So what you are doing is definitely working. Miso is eating well right now, which is a huge step. So she loves her protein now huh? Her calcium intake is perfectly fine as well.
There doesn't appear to be any swelling that I can see on or around her wrist or on the fingers either. Do you give warm baths a few times per week?

Tracie

 

[Ethelia]

Thanks for getting back to me.

I first noticed Miso holding her foot this way about a 3 weeks ago. I watch Miso all day long so I doubt that it was something she has always had or Im sure I would have noticed.
Im just so cross with myself that I neglected her into MBD. I was just so desperate not to get her hooked onto syringe only feeding that I was only getting calcium into her twice or three times a week(if i was lucky with the worms). It was my own inexperience. I really didnt think I was putting her at risk.
I shall never forgive myself if her foot doesnt right itself. I rescue dragons to give them the home they deserve, and i feel I have failed her.

Her eating has asounded me. After trying everything twice it was something as simple as buying another new bowl for her to go from 0-60 in a day. Insted of forcing bugs into her now she pounces on them.

Do you think i should switch to liquid calcium to help her metabolise it?
Her roaches are dusted 5 days a week with powder and all her bugs are gutloaded with veg soaked in calcium.
Im willing to do anything.

Because Miso tends to like it as hot as I will allow (115*) she gets a 15 minute warm bath everyday to make sure she is constantly hydrated. She also appears not to have too much weakness in this wrist as she often pulls herself out of the bath onto me using only this hand.

Thank you so much for your advice and I appologise for being so emotional.
Holly

 

[Drache613]

Hello Holly,

Oh no need to apologize about being emotional...she is the love of your life, I understand. Miso is beautiful.
I am sure that as much time as you spend with her you definitely would have noticed that foot I am quite positive about that.
You have not failed her, because you are trying & you are fixing the problem now. I understand it is hard not to feel guilty about missing something like that, but unfortunately things happen.
So what different type of bowl did you get her to eat out of that helped improve her eating? That is awesome that she is eating so well now.
Perhaps trying the liquid calcium would be a good idea for a little while to see if it helps in her ability to metabolize & absorb calcium more efficiently.
Great that her strength is doing better in her wrists too! It really sounds like she is on the mend & I know you are working hard to help her. She sure does like it hot. Sometimes when they are recovering from sickness or illness they need a bit higher temps for the body's immune system to kick in better. Plus, she is eating alot & that does help her digest more effectively too. Adults tend not to like it quite as hot, but, they are larger & their bodies hold heat much better than smaller juvies & babies do.
What else do you feed her bugs, do you give them dry food as well, along with the veggies?

Keep up the great work with her. If you get the liquid calcium, let me know & I will dose it for you.

Tracie