My thoughts on the sand discussion...

[Bootz]

That's the appeal of reptiles to me though. They still retain their basic instincts. Dogs and cats are so-so to me. Anyone can keep either of them. But reptiles are creatures that you actually have to learn about to be successful in keeping them.

This thread is really getting off-topic...

 

[RedInkAus]

.. I highly doubt anyone on here has a beardie caught in the wilderness lol. They are bred and sold and I beleive there is a good chance that over time they become used to whatever they are growing up in. :study:

:wave: :wave: I have kept dragons that have been wild caught as well as dragons from wild caught parents and born in captivity.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

In the past I have used sand with no problems. The reason I switched away from it was one simple thing. Keeping a dragon in sand is like letting it live in a litter box. In the wild the live on packed clay. This was a personal choice, but it still skeeves me when I see a dragon on sand

 

[dna14]

We had our beardie on sand first calci-sand then crushed walnut shells and after 2 months she went from eating 35 crickets a day plus salad and phoenix worms after a big poop in the morning to eating nothing and not pooping for 7 straight days and then we found this site. We believe that changing her out of the sand and learning where to massage her belly that night saved her life. So for our dragon sand is not the best option. But one of the best things to me about this site is learning about all the different beardies :!: They are all so different :mrgreen: It seems to me that many people who have been advised to remove sand are posting for help because their beardies are not well and everyone just wants to help. Diamc gave us advice that we believe helped save our baby and then many looked at pics when she was well and we never felt jumped on or picked on.
Have a sparkling evening,
-A- :study: - still learning!

 

[Bootz]

People do come here for help. But if you read the first page of this thread you'll see the initial reactions that some people have when you mention anything about a dragon on sand.

 

[Seven65]

People do come here for help. But if you read the first page of this thread you'll see the initial reactions that some people have when you mention anything about a dragon on sand.

I still fail to see what you find to be wrong with any of these posts. All I see are people expressing their opinions in response to your topic, there doesn't seem to be anything radical about these "initial reactions" at all. Sorry but it seems to me like you're beating a dead horse.

 

[Bootz]

Some of them have the WTF-Factor implied

 

[Seven65]

Some of them have the WTF-Factor implied

I looked over the thread again. I belive everything posted was well natured. I don't think anyone here would be too shocked to see someone perfering sand either. It's quite common for people to keep adult dragons on sand, just not everyones first choce, for previously stated reasons. I'm getting the impression that you're seeking out malintent, but I can't see why. As I have been repeatedly stating everyone is just trying to help each other, no one is looking to create a judgemental enviorment.

Maybe I'm just being overly defensive but I still don't see what you're talking about.

 

[jscott]

Bootz on Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:18 pm

Some of them have the WTF-Factor implied

by no means am i trying to add fuel to the fire. i was just reading through this thread and i saw many farmiliar members make some very good points. one thing i didnt see mentioned(i was kinda skimming) was 1 major fact;

people might seem alittle quick to jump on the defensive but you've got to realize; it's all been said before.

im relatively new to this forum, its been around for a while now...

just now i did a quick search for topics on this site related to "sand substrate" and in under a minute found 7 threads talking about almost the exact same thing.

they're all opening the same topic back up and they all eventually end in people "agreeing to disagree". some people wanna play it safe, some people dont think thats necessary, some people think thats actually harmfull(virus :twisted: ). check em' out, some of these are years old:

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viewtopic.php?p=810018

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10311&start=75&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&view=print

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=48148&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&view=print

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=90498&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

viewtopic.php?p=187070

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=93149&hilit=+sand+substrate

like i said, i dont wanna add fuel to the fire. i just wanted to add something that hadnt been said yet. if i skipped over someones post that touched on that message i appologize :wink: .

 

[Bootz]

pulled from: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=104951

you use calcium sand? don't do that. It ISN'T edible for the beardie, and can cause impaction at all ages, ESPECIALLY when they're young. The lizard wants to eat the sand, but it's NOT good for them. take it out instantly is my suggestion.

Sorry Sammy but this is what this thread was about. This is in no way an attack on you. I'm just trying to point out the reaction I'm talking about.

 

[TMortem]

I haven't actually got my dragon yet, been doing all the research I can before I take that step! :study:

I'm building my vivarium, had my heart set on sand for parts of it. But thanks to threads like this one I've reconsidered. Someone mentioned sand looking good aesthetically, but when you think about it... that is really quite selfish. If I'm honest, that is why I wanted to use sand. It looks 'natural', but as Em pointed out baked earth and rock is the Real natural terrain for beardies. So I am going to try recreate this using a tile mosaic!

Back on topic, I guess it comes down to personal experience and belief. Some people pointed out that they have never had a problem with sand. For me, as a first time owner, I just asked myself - if it was worth the risk? The answer is no.

Better safe than sorry eh?

 

[OrcaMistress]

I haven't actually got my dragon yet, been doing all the research I can before I take that step! :study:

I'm building my vivarium, had my heart set on sand for parts of it. But thanks to threads like this one I've reconsidered. Someone mentioned sand looking good aesthetically, but when you think about it... that is really quite selfish. If I'm honest, that is why I wanted to use sand. It looks 'natural', but as Em pointed out baked earth and rock is the Real natural terrain for beardies. So I am going to try recreate this using a tile mosaic!

Back on topic, I guess it comes down to personal experience and belief. Some people pointed out that they have never had a problem with sand. For me, as a first time owner, I just asked myself - if it was worth the risk? The answer is no.

Better safe than sorry eh?

Agreed. Well said

That's why i wanted sand too. I'm ordering a custom made viv when i get closer to getting my baby. I found this site and all the issues people are having with their dragons and I too think it is not worth the risk. I've also noticed that more people on here have had issues with sand than haven't. I guess those that haven't are lucky and I hope their good luck continues.

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Tmortem,

I think, being what your experience level is, being safe is a good idea.

but as Em pointed out baked earth and rock is the Real natural terrain for beardies. So I am going to try recreate this using a tile mosaic!

I highly doubt tile is natural, as it allows for zero natural/instinctual behaviours. If Australia was truly that hard, burrowing would be impossible and therefore, digging would not be an instinctual behaviour. They would also nest on the surface (which they don't). Also if all of Australia was hard packed clay, and the dragons could dig burrows, the eggs would suffocate and die, because clay doesn't breathe well (air exchange).

When my dragons brumate, they dig shallow burrows and back fill them shut so that they are sealed inside. If they did this in a primarily clay substrate, the dragons would suffocate and die.

 

[TheVirus]

I guess those that haven't are lucky and I hope their good luck continues.

For some it may be luck, but I can only speak for myself. I have hatched around a thousand babies. I got my first dragons sixteen years ago. I have kept many species of lizards and have successfully breed quite a few. I don't have problems with a loose substrate. I'm not that lucky

Impaction happens when other aspects of husbandry are not up to par and the dragon isn't working properly. Dragons are dependent on their environment in order for them to work properly. We are responsible for setting up their environment. When dragons get impacted, people don't want to admit its their fault or that they don't understand reptile husbandry the way they thought......so they blame the dragons and the sand

 

[OrcaMistress]

I guess those that haven't are lucky and I hope their good luck continues.

For some it may be luck, but I can only speak for myself. I have hatched around a thousand babies. I got my first dragons sixteen years ago. I have kept many species of lizards and have successfully breed quite a few. I don't have problems with a loose substrate. I'm not that lucky

Impaction happens when other aspects of husbandry are not up to par and the dragon isn't working properly. Dragons are dependent on their environment in order for them to work properly. We are responsible for setting up their environment. When dragons get impacted, people don't want to admit its their fault or that they don't understand reptile husbandry the way they thought......so they blame the dragons and the sand

Some people on here have had better luck than others. There isn't really any way to know the details behind the deaths of beardies, except that as you say, they are quick to blame impaction. All we know is what people write.

I'm a newbie. I wont put my future beardie near the stuff, at least not until i know more about it. I do know other things can lead to impaction, like feeding feeders that are wider than the space between the dragon's eyes. Who knows, maybe I'll put the play sand stuff only in a certain part of the cage.