My thoughts on the sand discussion...

[Bootz]

Ok. So I know the argument about sand is that there is a chance that it could cause impaction. But if its really as high of a chance as some people make it sound, how are there dragons for us to keep in the first place? Think about it... What type of environment do these animals live in in nature? That's right. A desert. What kind of soil do you find in the desert? Wait a second. Isn't it sand? Or wait, is it ceramic tile? My point is that these animals are desert dwellers. They've survived for god knows how long living in a sandy environment. Tile just isn't natural. I do agree that young dragons shouldn't be kept on sand but once they reach a certain age it shouldn't matter. Anyway, that's my rant. Not meaning to offend anybody. Just wanted to vent about something.

 

[GoFast]

well obviously everyone has there opinions and everyone is entitled to listen or not listen to the warnings given. My thought is very simply, "is it worth the risk?" To me, no, it is not but if you feel like it is then good luck and let us know when you need help getting your dragon through an impaction; we will be there!

 

[Bootz]

Its the care givers choice to make. If their dragon does become impacted they should live with the consequences. Be it a dead dragon or a huge vet bill. I do keep my dragons on sand and I am preped for whatever comes of my choice.

 

[shimmeriing]

As a captive pet, it makes sense to me, to use tiles. When they're in the desert, they aren't sitting in the same area of sand..where they poop and the nasty stuff just sits..in the wild..it rains, wind blows..etc. No owner wants to deal with their beardie dying on them..some just choose not to use sand..cause why risk it. I'm sure many out in the wild die because of impaction..nothing we can do about it. Like stated above, it's a personal preference. I think many may have had problems with it, so they're against it.
In the long run, tiles are cheap, and easy to clean..but that's not forcing anyone to use it.

 

[Embee]

Think about it... What type of environment do these animals live in in nature? That's right. A desert. What kind of soil do you find in the desert? Wait a second. Isn't it sand?

It is my understanding that in the area of the Australian desert where bearded dragons live, there is not sand, but hard packed dry earth.

The problem of sand (in particular, calci, vita types) is that they tend to "fuse" when moistened (imagine then, what happens when it then enters the digestion system). This is why if you prefer sand, it's best to use play sand, well sifted and cleaned. But it's still a risk. Another reason people avoid loose substrates in captivity is the fact that they tend to harbor more germs and bacteria than solid substrates. And in a small enclosure (comparing to the vast expanse of the wild here), cleanliness can be the difference between a healthy or sick beardie.

For me, as GoFast said, it's about "why take the risk?" Impaction has been known to happen, and the results are often dire, if not grave. I want our dear girl to be her best self for as long as she can be. She already went through stress as a hatching due to a poor UVB light (recommended by the pet store), and it was awful. Whatever I can do to assure her safety from here on out? Well, I owe her at least that.

Just my .02 for whatever that's worth.

The best,
Em

 

[ringfinger]

The dangers of predation, starvation, and impaction in the wild result in an average lifespan of about 3 years from what I remember reading...

If you wish to increase lifespan, you minimize these risks, impaction being one of them. Dragons in captivity can live around 10 years.

Minimize these risks if you want to ensure a long life for your pet.

 

[Seven65]

The dangers of predation, starvation, and impaction in the wild result in an average lifespan of about 3 years from what I remember reading...

If you wish to increase lifespan, you minimize these risks, impaction being one of them. Dragons in captivity can live around 10 years.

Minimize these risks if you want to ensure a long life for your pet.

yes. Just because they may encounter something in the wild doesn't mean that it's any less dangerous. In the wild it is survival of the fittest, there's no reason it has to be like that in captivity.

This is an extreme example but, in the wild the have to deal with preditors are you going to put something that may want to eat your dragon in the same room as it because it's natural?

And as said before, the deserts where dragons come from in Austraila are not the same as the traditional style deserts you're thinking of, the ground is mostly hard packed. And really even if they were always in sand it doesn't change the fact that it's safer to use tile.

Also tile is easier to clean, much easier to clean. You are inclined to clean it more often because you can see when it's dirty and all you have to do is wipe it down.

You can use sand, people have used sand for a long time some have problems with it some don't. I'm just saying it's an unnessisary risk and I'd rather not take it.

 

[Bootz]

My overall objective for this post was to show exactly how anal people are about the subject. I keep my dragons on sand but they get fed in a seperate tank that has paper towel as the sub. I minimize the risks in my own way. Like it's been said somewhere else on here, "sand gets warmer faster than tile". and to me it looks better in their living area.

And as for the subject of captive animals having the risks minimized... Does that mean i should remove the water from my red eared sliders' tank because there is a risk of drowning? I have lost one of them to exactly that. Or should I let my dog run without a leash because there a risk of him choking?

 

[Seven65]

We're not saying these things to pick on anyone, we're merely stating facts and opinions.

If you still don't understand that sand is a serious risk please read this thread from the Beardie ER section of the forums http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=104184
Someone just lost their dragon to what seems to be sand ingestion.

And as for the subject of captive animals having the risks minimized... Does that mean i should remove the water from my red eared sliders' tank because there is a risk of drowning? I have lost one of them to exactly that. Or should I let my dog run without a leash because there a risk of him choking?

I don't know much about turtles but don't they need the water to live? And your dog is safer on a leash than not on a leash. Niether of those are examples of minimazing risks. Again I will state: we aren't trying to attack anyone, only trying to help keep everyone's animals happy and healthy, that's what this site is for and it does a very very good job of it.

 

[Bootz]

I understand that it is a risk and I understand that people are generally trying to help. However, the way people get so heated on the subject is not very helpfull. I have read and noticed that whenever someone writes and says they use sand, everyone and their brother seems to scold them like a kid that just stole a piece of candy.

 

[Seven65]

I understand that it is a risk and I understand that people are generally trying to help. However, the way people get so heated on the subject is not very helpfull. I have read and noticed that whenever someone writes and says they use sand, everyone and their brother seems to scold them like a kid that just stole a piece of candy.

I don't think anyone tries to scold anyone, I could see it maybe coming off as that. But I don't think it's anyones intention. It's hard to tell someone that they'd be better off doing things a different way without offending them, I try to chose my words carefully but text can easily be mis-interperated because we are used to hearing the tone of people voices and the body languages they use. Forums can be a pretty dry form of communication.

In all honesty I don't blame you for perfering sand. I'm sure it would be fun watching your dragon dig around in it. i'll probably make a sandbox for my dragon when he gets older and see if he'd like to play around with it. I just know from studying these forums meticulously for 3 months that i wouldn't risk using sand as a living enviorment.

 

[Bootz]

Red eared sliders do need water just like any aquatic turtle species. And yes they can drown. I've personally experienced it. And I'll admit the dog was a poor example. I also want to say that as an Air Force cop and firefighter, risk management is second nature to me.

I just think that before people give their advice they should ask questions. Most people dont take criticism very well. And when someone types a three or four paragraph post whenever someone even mentions the word sand, it comes off pretty condescending even if they don't know the circumstances.

 

[Seven65]

Remember, everyone here has been on the other side of the advice at one point. If the people on this website haddn't told me that I was doing near everything wrong from the start there's a good chance my dragon would be very unhealthy and quite possibly dead, or close to it, by the end of the year. He is still drastically undersized due to the poor conditions in the petstore where I bought him, but thanks to this website is growing steadily every week. I doubt there is anyone who came to this website knowing everything, and most everyone comes here with a question. Everyone tries to answer these questions and offer additional advise that they hope will benifit the animals. Most people are grateful for it. I'm sorry if you don't care for advice given to you, but a lot of people do, me being one. And a lot of the time we do ask questions, the same questions every time, there's a list of these questions in the health forum in form of a sticky post. But the result of these questions in the end is going to be our advise, do with it what you wish, but we only offer it to help.

 

[Embee]

Bootz, you are absolutely entitled to your own views on this, and certainly you are far from alone in them. The fact is, this is a hotly contested issue, period. I have viewed and participated in numerous threads where this issue has come up, and certainly there is a strong consensus on the forum that sand is to be avoided, just not worth the risk. However, I have never personally witnessed this advice being offered (here on bd.org) in a scolding way. :?: I personally was treated this way on another site when we first brought our dragon home, and were using sand. Nonetheless, the argument this person made--which included an attached article with impaction photo--was convincing enough for us to dump our sand. But that was our choice. I would urge you that if you do happen to witness any disrespectful scolding here on the forum to please alert a moderator, as this kind of behavior is neither appreciated nor tolerated: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=65765

In general, there does seem to be a strong 'consensus of information' offered here at bd.org, which I haven't been able to find anywhere else on the web. For me, it has been enormously helpful. I came here because our dragon was struggling due to a poor UVB light (not that I knew that at the time :roll: ). Without having found this place, I doubt I'd have received proper information/advice in upgrading her husbandry, where she is now (thankfully!) eating well and thriving. I'd asked out for help in different places on the web only to receive a barrage of conflicting information, and it was terribly frustrating. As Seven65 put it so well, most who are here came here because there was something going on for their dragons. They've been on the other side of any given problem that may come up. I do a lot of posting on threads that mention lack of appetite, lethargic dragon, etc., because I've been there and I've learned some things that can really help turn things around. I believe it's precisely because there tends to be a kind and respectful atmosphere here, that it encourages people to stick around and learn more. I don't doubt that many dragons are all the better be it for this forum. In addition, because there is a strong consensus of information/advice offered, it makes it easier for people to focus and understand what is needed in caring for their dragons.

That said, it certainly doesn't mean that there isn't room for healthy debate, which of course, this thread alone demonstrates quite well IMO. I want you to know that read your posts with as much open-mindedness and respect as I would give anyone on the forum, any subject, even if my initial (or standing) impulse is to disagree. You do make some very compelling arguments. Also, I must thank you because it has lead me to do some rather extensive research as to the natural terrain of bearded dragons which isn't as easy as one would think. :? After wading heavily through google madness, what I have come up with is that they live on a variety of different terrains, that the Australian inland desert is quite diverse: scrublands, hard pan, clay, rock and yes, sand... although I get the idea that the sand isn't the type we'd see in say the Sahara, but more like a very thin layer over dry packed earth, a sand layer that would be blowing about over the top of the main terrain, rather than inches or feet deep say. (But don't quote me on that because I haven't finished my research yet!) :wink:

I've also been doing some further research on impaction. I found a compelling element about sand/substrate impaction which I thought was worth noting, in that it tends not to be like impaction say, from a feeder too large rather, it can happen VERY gradually, as small grains of sand build up in a dragon's system over weeks, months, perhaps even years. Dragons can take in sand not just by eating feeders, but also by their natural "tasting" of everything, the way in which they sense their environment. By the time they start to show physical signs of distress, dragons are often at a very advanced stage of impaction, which is extremely difficult to treat. In any case, I thought this was an interesting point.

Respectfully,
Em

The dangers of predation, starvation, and impaction in the wild result in an average lifespan of about 3 years from what I remember reading...

If you wish to increase lifespan, you minimize these risks, impaction being one of them. Dragons in captivity can live around 10 years.

Minimize these risks if you want to ensure a long life for your pet.

This is beautifully stated. Thank you.

The best to all!

 

[Bootz]

Em,

That is how advice should be given, IMO. It's better to recieve a post back like that than a post with the same repetetive sentence "sand is satan!".

Again the main reason for me to make the original post in this thread was to judge reactions and see how much conflicting info I could find, not to offend anyone. So if I did offend someone, I am sorry. My stubbornness isn't my best trait either so... :twisted: