My thoughts on the sand discussion...

[TheVirus]

Hello,

I keep dragons on a deep burrowable sandy loam (dirt). I do, however, keep babies on sand. The reason being that dirt is dirty and tends to cover the dragons in it and dulls out the color. For my adults it isn't a big deal as they are not for sale, but for the babies, I need to keep them clean looking.

I don't believe in keeping dragons on sand. Not for the reasons stated here, but because its too dry. With the babies, I moisten the sand, but it dries out rather quickly (when compared to dirt) so I have to add water more frequently. Also it takes more moisture to make it burrowable, but for babies that isn't a big deal. They only dig under the boards to make shallow burrows.

The problem I have with "The Sand Debate" or loose substrate debate, and the problem people have with "my view" on it, is that I don't blame the dragons inability when i hear of one getting impacted, I blame the keepers inability to set up a functional environment for the lizard.

Dragons are one of the most hardy reptiles in captivity. Some people on beardie forums keep them as if they were the most delicate. The fact that the can be kept on tile, in such a dry, arid environment, shows just how easy they are. This is a couple quotes by Frank Retes that I really like. He's talking about reptiles in general.

You should consider, in nature, they utilize the most harsh environments they can succeed in. As in, nature at times push them into the most marginal conditions. FR

In captivity, we do not have to include the harsh trying conditions. FR

In the past I have angered many folks by saying I keep all species alike, and I do. I do not allow any species to dehydrate, or underheat or overheat. FR

Just because they live in a harsh environment doesn't mean we have to make it harsh in our care. The very fact that people have to soak their animals, use fancy bulbs, feed them tiny/soft prey items (no bones or high amounts of chitin), keep them on something as unnatural as tile, shows just how harsh of an environment those people provide. When you start to get a basic understanding of beardie behaviour, and how they go about fulfilling the needs themselves, you'll see its far easier to allow them to do what they do. All we have to do is give them the tools they use to accomplish needs, and allow them to be what they are. Its when we decide what they need and when they need it, that problems arise. Thanks for reading!

 

[Seven65]

The problem I have with "The Sand Debate" or loose substrate debate, and the problem people have with "my view" on it, is that I don't blame the dragons inability when i hear of one getting impacted, I blame the keepers inability to set up a functional environment for the lizard.

How is it the keeper's fault if the dragon decides to eat the loose substrate in any way other than putting him on the substrate in the first place? How would you avoid that and still keep it natural. The only way i could see in avoiding that is feeding them in an area that isn't on the loose substrate, which appears to be un-natural in your views. Even in that situation, some of them just stright up eat the substrate, and running the danger of repeating myself, how is that the owner's fault in any way other than giving them the loose substrate?

 

[Embee]

"sand is satan!".

LOL :mrgreen: Indeed, I think it's best if someone takes the time and care to write something a little less dogmatic, and a little more diplomatic.

Again the main reason for me to make the original post in this thread was to judge reactions and see how much conflicting info I could find, not to offend anyone. So if I did offend someone, I am sorry. My stubbornness isn't my best trait either so... :twisted:

I think this is clearly a subject that needs to be talked about, it's just one of those that tends to be hotly contested, but all in all, I think this thread has been illuminating, and also respectful. At least I hope...

I did yet a little more "digging" on the natural terrain of bearded dragons and it seems that there are areas of rolling dunes in the Australian inland, but the consensus (man, somehow I'm really stuck on that word right now, sorry) is that these areas would offer little of what bearded dragons need to thrive/survive, i.e., shade and food. But that was just one person's opinion on a website somewhere out there... it did make sense to me however.

:dontknow:

The best,
Em

 

[RedInkAus]

I did yet a little more "digging" on the natural terrain of bearded dragons and it seems that there are areas of rolling dunes in the Australian inland, but the consensus (man, somehow I'm really stuck on that word right now, sorry) is that these areas would offer little of what bearded dragons need to thrive/survive, i.e., shade and food. But that was just one person's opinion on a website somewhere out there... it did make sense to me however.

:dontknow:

The best,
Em

WOOHOO,
Finally someone who does'nt take the pics of the Australian Terra found on the internet on face value, GOOD WORK EMBEE.

 

[Stygma]

I expect you'll get a lot of people bashing your defense of sand in the first post (although I see now what your intent was). Let me say this; I'm on the fence. I started out as a total beardie-noob, as some here may remember. I heard all the fervor over choice of substrate, and I knew that my beardie's prior owner had him on Calci-sand even as a baby. But my beardie is healthy as a horse. Still, I took the advice to heart and changed substrates, only to hear of more problems with the other ones. My dragon has been on every substrate known to man, but he's still as healthy as ever, as my vet can attest to. He's been on calci-sand, play sand, walnut shells, soil, repticarpet, tile, shelf liner..you name it! One time he was even on 'road grade' sand due to a mix-up at Home Depot (where I bought play sand). Still, he's 'crapping like a champ' and has had very few problems over the time I've owned him. Now by no means am I an expert, but the point I was trying to make is that it's different for everyone. There's always gonna be people who are quick to tell you what they believe is right, and some who say otherwise. Make your own decisions, and do your best to keep your beardie healthy. If you've had your dragon for a while, trust your judgment. Failing that, trust the judgment of your vet. My beardie has never once 'eaten' sand, unless you count the small amount that sometimes sticks with his food; but it all passes right through. Adversely, there are some beardies who will eat mouthfuls of calci-sand and die of impaction. Every single scenario is different, and the only one who can really make the call is you.

Also, as for the argument of 'natural habitat'; the inland bearded dragon lives on the cusp of those areas with tight-packed clay, but still reside in areas that offer shade and cover. Generally speaking, they would be on either loose dirt or sandy material. Even on the hard-packed ground people seem to associate with the Australian deserts, there's still lose particles and dust around; it's not spotless. Yes, the lifespan is less in the wild, but people seem to quick to blame that on substrate, and don't think

"Hey! Maybe they're being eaten by predators, like most small animals in the wild!"

There are various factors that contribute to the shortness of the dragon's lifespan in the wild, and I think impaction is the least of its worries.

To grind it all down to a more palatable one-sentence reply.

Make decisions to the best of your knowledge, and don't try to stuff your oppinions down anybody's throat; there will always be someone who thinks otherwise.

~ Styg

</rantend>

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Seven,

Beardies lick everything. Its inevitable and not important. Impaction is a complicated thing. While sand is the thing that impacts the dragons, there is underlying causes that make the sand not passable. Kind of like an AIDS patient dieing of pneumonia. Is pneumonia to blame or AIDS?

In my personal experience, and personal opinion, basking temps and hydration are to blame. Or a slow metabolism and dehydration. A dragon eating the sand (different than licking) would be due to lack of vitamins/minerals, or starvation (again theory as I've never witnesses it). Beardies are dependent on their environment to fulfill their needs. If something about their environment is off, they don't work right. We are responsible for their environment.

I have about 30 dragons now (mostly babies). I have clutches hatching every other week. I've hatched around a thousand babies. They all go on a loose substrate. Impaction from a loose substrate is something I no longer think about, regardless if the babies lick the sand or not But, like I stated before, I feel that sand is not a good substrate for beardies. Thanks!

 

[mischa]

Ok. So I know the argument about sand is that there is a chance that it could cause impaction. But if its really as high of a chance as some people make it sound, how are there dragons for us to keep in the first place? Think about it... What type of environment do these animals live in in nature? That's right. A desert. What kind of soil do you find in the desert? Wait a second. Isn't it sand? Or wait, is it ceramic tile? My point is that these animals are desert dwellers. They've survived for god knows how long living in a sandy environment. Tile just isn't natural. I do agree that young dragons shouldn't be kept on sand but once they reach a certain age it shouldn't matter. Anyway, that's my rant. Not meaning to offend anybody. Just wanted to vent about something.

Don't take this in a bad way, but if your theory is correct then why shouldn't we keep our baby beardies on sand seeing as how in nature they would be born on a particlesubstrate?

 

[Bootz]

Like everyone has said, it's not really a good idea to put young dragons on sand. Possibly because they are young and all young animals, even humans, are going to get into everything.

Think of it like this... When you were a kid, did you ever get into something, lets use dog or cat food in this case, and get a mouth full of it just because it looked like people food? Or maybe even glue, because it looked like pudding/yogurt? Or those Crayola scented crayons(if you're old enough to remember those before they discontinued the ones that smelled like food for that very reason)?

My reasoning for not wanting to put young dragons on sand is for that reason. As I also said though, Once my dragons reached a certain age it becomes less of an issue with monitoring.

 

[Seven65]

That's perfectly reasonable.

 

[Bootz]

Just out of curiosity... Does anyone else remember those food scented crayons?

 

[mischa]

Haha yeah.

 

[fkalb]

Im by all means no expert on the subject.. yet :lol: Mostly everybody is making valid points. I am just about finished building my viv and i went with some nice slate tiles, they are fairly rough so the dragon will have better grip and it can file the nails down somewhat, didnt glue or grout them.. should be fairly easy to keep clean. Just put a few layers or newspaper underneath incase something does get between its still no big deal.

As far as the discussion of sand/tile/carpet/whatever goes.. Sure they live in fairly sandy terrain.. naturally.. I highly doubt anyone on here has a beardie caught in the wilderness lol. They are bred and sold and I beleive there is a good chance that over time they become used to whatever they are growing up in. :study:

 

[Bootz]

Eventually they will be completely domesticated. However since they are still 1000's of years behind cats and dogs, their natural instincts are still in place.

Just wanted to throw that out there... :study: it in my Iguana Handbook.

 

[fkalb]

Yeah i agree with you there aswell. Its nice to still have that natural instinct in some ways.. Our dogs are unreal but sometimes i wish the cats would act like real cats.. oldschool cats lol... go catch some mice and play outside instead of laying on the couch and eating all day haha

 

[Seven65]

Yeah i agree with you there aswell. Its nice to still have that natural instinct in some ways.. Our dogs are unreal but sometimes i wish the cats would act like real cats.. oldschool cats lol... go catch some mice and play outside instead of laying on the couch and eating all day haha

As opposed to nature

Lol