Mealworms
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You're right, mealworms do have a hard chitin shell which can be an impaction risk so we don't recommend feeding them. They also have very little nutritional value so yes, it can cause health problems if you continue to feed them.
How old or what size is your beardie?
How old or what size is your beardie?
premammalian
Hatchling Member
Has a control study actually been done to prove or disprove the risk of mealworms. It seems strange, given that bearded dragons eat whatever prey is available, and moreover have specialized dentition to chew hard things. Perhapse too many sick or dehydrated dragons were getting impacted by mealworms, and thus this trend was born. Nutricionally, mealworms aren't below superworms, which latter are used as a stapple, even though both of them tend to the more fatty side.
onceblue
Hatchling Member
I don't know if a study has been performed, but I know that there are a lot of personal accounts of issues feeding meal worms, not limited to bearded dragons.
My bearded dragon was owned by someone else before me and he was fed meal worms and super worms that were too big for him. He never ended up impacted and was declared healthy by a vet shortly after I adopted him.
So I think it's possible for some beardies to eat them and not have issues, but in my opinion, it's not worth the risk - hence why I stopped feeding those things to him. There are plenty of other nutritious feeders that can be used.
Also, I don't personally follow the line of thinking that if they would do it in wild, it means it's okay in captivity. In the wild, they would eat what's available, sure, including insects that are too large and potentially insects that would harm them. But if we have the chance to do better in captivity, we should. In the wild, they are subjected to predators, but we don't put them through that stress in captivity just because they would experience it in the wild.
Keep in mind, too, that dragons kept in captivity with good husbandry have the potential to live a lot longer than those in the wild, specifically because we protect them and have the ability to make good choices for them.
My bearded dragon was owned by someone else before me and he was fed meal worms and super worms that were too big for him. He never ended up impacted and was declared healthy by a vet shortly after I adopted him.
So I think it's possible for some beardies to eat them and not have issues, but in my opinion, it's not worth the risk - hence why I stopped feeding those things to him. There are plenty of other nutritious feeders that can be used.
Also, I don't personally follow the line of thinking that if they would do it in wild, it means it's okay in captivity. In the wild, they would eat what's available, sure, including insects that are too large and potentially insects that would harm them. But if we have the chance to do better in captivity, we should. In the wild, they are subjected to predators, but we don't put them through that stress in captivity just because they would experience it in the wild.
Keep in mind, too, that dragons kept in captivity with good husbandry have the potential to live a lot longer than those in the wild, specifically because we protect them and have the ability to make good choices for them.
premammalian
Hatchling Member
I give them for variety. There are no problems if you give them together with other feeders as a part of a varied diet.
Of course we must not immitate the wild, but our animals are adapted for some things which are beneficial to them in the long run. Bearded dragons are adapted to chew hard foods, and in fact not giving them hard foods can predispose for dental problems. I am preparing a topic on that exact thing.
A controled study has never been conducted, probably because mealworms aren't so bad as porttrayed. I suspect commercial interests are behind all this propaganda against the mealworm. Myths as they can impact healthy lizards, that can eat through the animals stomach, have been set free to circulate through reptile communities with no one to give an alternative opinion. Why? But why, you say, mealworms must be demonized by insect producers? Just because they happen to gather too many good characteristics: They come from a temperate climate, they thrive on essencially byproducts of human food, they store for long in the fridge, they breed with minimal effort, they withstand great variation in environmental conditions, that is they can be bred by anyone. No sane insect producer would sell something that will be bred by anyone with no expense. So they marketed us the superworm, a tropical, cold intolerant relative of the mealworm which does not feed before pupation when sold, and needs special conditions to reproduce and then grow. The same applies to other insects. You see in most caresheets the cricket is promoted as the absolute stapple of captive lizard diets, but why not the cockroach? Because when you buy crickets, either they die or get fed out immediately, so you need to go back to the store next week to buy again. The same applies to roaches as well. The tropical, slow growing and breeding Blaptica dubia has been promoted much more than the temperate, hardy and able to feed and thrive on essencially food scraps red runner (Shelfordella tartara). Also it is very difficult to find information on how to raise phoenix worms or hornworms. Why? The above aren't creations of my mind, I actually discussed it with a friend of mine who is owner of a specialized pet store for exotics. Please see behind the advertizing and demonizing.
Of course we must not immitate the wild, but our animals are adapted for some things which are beneficial to them in the long run. Bearded dragons are adapted to chew hard foods, and in fact not giving them hard foods can predispose for dental problems. I am preparing a topic on that exact thing.
A controled study has never been conducted, probably because mealworms aren't so bad as porttrayed. I suspect commercial interests are behind all this propaganda against the mealworm. Myths as they can impact healthy lizards, that can eat through the animals stomach, have been set free to circulate through reptile communities with no one to give an alternative opinion. Why? But why, you say, mealworms must be demonized by insect producers? Just because they happen to gather too many good characteristics: They come from a temperate climate, they thrive on essencially byproducts of human food, they store for long in the fridge, they breed with minimal effort, they withstand great variation in environmental conditions, that is they can be bred by anyone. No sane insect producer would sell something that will be bred by anyone with no expense. So they marketed us the superworm, a tropical, cold intolerant relative of the mealworm which does not feed before pupation when sold, and needs special conditions to reproduce and then grow. The same applies to other insects. You see in most caresheets the cricket is promoted as the absolute stapple of captive lizard diets, but why not the cockroach? Because when you buy crickets, either they die or get fed out immediately, so you need to go back to the store next week to buy again. The same applies to roaches as well. The tropical, slow growing and breeding Blaptica dubia has been promoted much more than the temperate, hardy and able to feed and thrive on essencially food scraps red runner (Shelfordella tartara). Also it is very difficult to find information on how to raise phoenix worms or hornworms. Why? The above aren't creations of my mind, I actually discussed it with a friend of mine who is owner of a specialized pet store for exotics. Please see behind the advertizing and demonizing.
onceblue
Hatchling Member
I don't think the fact that there has been no controlled study conducted is automatic proof that mealworms are not so bad; unfortunately, there are not a lot of controlled studies when it comes to pet nutrition in general and many vets and scientists in the field have varying opinions. This is not just limited to bearded dragons, but dogs, too, and that's why you often see a debate between which is better: a raw diet or a kibble diet.
Also, the fact that there is no study not only means there is no solid proof that mealworms are bad, but it also means that there's no solid proof that mealworms are good, either. Until one is conducted, pet owners need to make responsible decisions based on the information available.
It is true that mealworms have hard chitin shells and that you can get more protein from a different, better feeder. The problem isn't necessarily the ability to chew hard things, but it is the ability to digest those hard things and the meat vs chitin ratio. In addition, as you said, mealworms are fatty. Too many mealworms over time increases the risk of health issues like fatty liver disease. You do make a point that superworms are fatty as well and are used as a staple despite that fact, but I personally wouldn't use superworms as a staple particularly for that reason. I would feed them as a treat at the most.
Bear in mind that there have been a lot of posts both here and elsewhere about feeding too many mealworms or superworms and other digestion issues, too, like vomiting.
So I don't think it is some kind of marketing scheme — I think mealworms ARE high in chitin and they ARE fatty. If you feed them occasionally and have no problem, that's your choice and that's fine for you, but so often we see posters who state that they are feeding mealworms exclusively to baby beardies who need better protein and who are known for being more prone to impaction than adults. In those cases I think it's important to educate them on the risks. Even if you don't agree about the impaction risk, a nutrition breakdown does show that other feeders are leaner sources of protein and have a lower chitin vs meat ratio, thereby making other feeders better for young beardies.
Also, I think dubia are chosen over red runner because red runners are very fast, reproduce very fast, and they are more likely to become pests if lost in the house than dubia because they breed at room temperature. I don't think it has anything to do with marketing. I looked into red runners and decided against them because I'm clumsy with insects sometimes and I don't want to have them living in my house unless they are contained. You have to keep in mind that most people want a feeder that's relatively easy to keep and low risk, which makes dubia more ideal. I think that's the biggest driving force behind the popularity of dubia over other roaches.
I found information on both breeding hornworms and phoenix worms and decided I would rather buy those than produce them. Hornworms especially are very messy to breed. Again, I think that has less to do with marketing and more to do with upkeep versus the ease of buying them.
(Also, as a side note, the only marketing I have seen in pet shops and the like is the pushing of mealworms and superworms. If you walk into a chain pet store and ask about bearded dragon nutrition, it's very likely that you are going to be told that mealworms are what you need to feed, despite the fact that the store sells calciworms and other feeders; that's the reason my beardie's former owner was feeding them. So as far as pushing products go, mealworms, in my experience, are pushed more than other feeders.)
Also, the fact that there is no study not only means there is no solid proof that mealworms are bad, but it also means that there's no solid proof that mealworms are good, either. Until one is conducted, pet owners need to make responsible decisions based on the information available.
It is true that mealworms have hard chitin shells and that you can get more protein from a different, better feeder. The problem isn't necessarily the ability to chew hard things, but it is the ability to digest those hard things and the meat vs chitin ratio. In addition, as you said, mealworms are fatty. Too many mealworms over time increases the risk of health issues like fatty liver disease. You do make a point that superworms are fatty as well and are used as a staple despite that fact, but I personally wouldn't use superworms as a staple particularly for that reason. I would feed them as a treat at the most.
Bear in mind that there have been a lot of posts both here and elsewhere about feeding too many mealworms or superworms and other digestion issues, too, like vomiting.
So I don't think it is some kind of marketing scheme — I think mealworms ARE high in chitin and they ARE fatty. If you feed them occasionally and have no problem, that's your choice and that's fine for you, but so often we see posters who state that they are feeding mealworms exclusively to baby beardies who need better protein and who are known for being more prone to impaction than adults. In those cases I think it's important to educate them on the risks. Even if you don't agree about the impaction risk, a nutrition breakdown does show that other feeders are leaner sources of protein and have a lower chitin vs meat ratio, thereby making other feeders better for young beardies.
Also, I think dubia are chosen over red runner because red runners are very fast, reproduce very fast, and they are more likely to become pests if lost in the house than dubia because they breed at room temperature. I don't think it has anything to do with marketing. I looked into red runners and decided against them because I'm clumsy with insects sometimes and I don't want to have them living in my house unless they are contained. You have to keep in mind that most people want a feeder that's relatively easy to keep and low risk, which makes dubia more ideal. I think that's the biggest driving force behind the popularity of dubia over other roaches.
I found information on both breeding hornworms and phoenix worms and decided I would rather buy those than produce them. Hornworms especially are very messy to breed. Again, I think that has less to do with marketing and more to do with upkeep versus the ease of buying them.
(Also, as a side note, the only marketing I have seen in pet shops and the like is the pushing of mealworms and superworms. If you walk into a chain pet store and ask about bearded dragon nutrition, it's very likely that you are going to be told that mealworms are what you need to feed, despite the fact that the store sells calciworms and other feeders; that's the reason my beardie's former owner was feeding them. So as far as pushing products go, mealworms, in my experience, are pushed more than other feeders.)
premammalian
Hatchling Member
Eventually I found a normal person that can make a civilized discussion and don't shout that I am an animal abuser or something like that by feeding mealworms.
I think that their whole digestive system is adapted for the same food, otherwise they would have a problem surviving, if for example they chewed hard materials and then couldn't digest them. It is known that many insectivores have chitinase in their stomach, which breaks down some of the chitin. I don't know anything about bearded dragons, but I will research. Regardless of having the ability to digest chitin or not, I have never seen mealworms or superworm parts in feces even in heavy feeding of these insects. The topic might be more complex than thought.
In a case of periodontal disease in a bearded dragon, the dragon was eating mainly crickets and mealworms, so even mealworms might not be hard enough to prevent this disease. It is known that agamids specialize mostly on beetles, ants and other hard insects in the wild. I give mine some pachnoda beetles ocasionally as treats, and she loves them and chews them for a long time.
I agree that there are much better insects nutritionally, but everything has a benefit. For those who want to breed or hibernate their animals, fattening for example is a good practice.
All the above discussion was mostly about larger juveniles and adults. I don't know if hatchlings have the same tolerances and needs.
I think that their whole digestive system is adapted for the same food, otherwise they would have a problem surviving, if for example they chewed hard materials and then couldn't digest them. It is known that many insectivores have chitinase in their stomach, which breaks down some of the chitin. I don't know anything about bearded dragons, but I will research. Regardless of having the ability to digest chitin or not, I have never seen mealworms or superworm parts in feces even in heavy feeding of these insects. The topic might be more complex than thought.
In a case of periodontal disease in a bearded dragon, the dragon was eating mainly crickets and mealworms, so even mealworms might not be hard enough to prevent this disease. It is known that agamids specialize mostly on beetles, ants and other hard insects in the wild. I give mine some pachnoda beetles ocasionally as treats, and she loves them and chews them for a long time.
I agree that there are much better insects nutritionally, but everything has a benefit. For those who want to breed or hibernate their animals, fattening for example is a good practice.
All the above discussion was mostly about larger juveniles and adults. I don't know if hatchlings have the same tolerances and needs.
onceblue
Hatchling Member
I definitely don't think you're an abuser for feeding mealworms. From your posts (both here and in other threads), it's clear to me that you put a lot of thought into how you are raising your beardie and I think you make good arguments. Most importantly, you're feeding a wide variety of insects and not just mealworms, which I think is a very important point that sets you apart from the beardie owners who try to feed mealworms as a staple.
There definitely are beardies who have eaten mealworms and done fine; as I mentioned, my beardie was raised on them exclusively for an entire month when he was very small (less than 6 inches in length) and despite the fact that his owner didn't pay much attention to lighting and temperatures, he still ended up just fine and never experienced impaction. So there is something to be said for the hardiness of these lizards.
However, I still consider myself against them because I don't think they are necessary feeders when you can feed a wide variety of other insects, and because I think the temptation to use them as a staple is a little too great for some people because they are so easy to feed — and I definitely don't think they make a good staple. Plus, I just feel more comfortable not feeding them to my beardie after having read so many personal accounts of issues; and until a study is conducted, all I have to go by are personal accounts.
But it really comes down to a personal preference, in the end. Just like with kids, no two people are going to raise their beardies exactly the same, and there are a lot of different thoughts out there about what is best. The only thing you can really do in the absence of controlled studies and proof is make an educated decision.
Do let me know, though, if you discover anything new in your research. I love talking about pet nutrition, it's one of my interests, so I'm always up for a friendly discussion
There definitely are beardies who have eaten mealworms and done fine; as I mentioned, my beardie was raised on them exclusively for an entire month when he was very small (less than 6 inches in length) and despite the fact that his owner didn't pay much attention to lighting and temperatures, he still ended up just fine and never experienced impaction. So there is something to be said for the hardiness of these lizards.
However, I still consider myself against them because I don't think they are necessary feeders when you can feed a wide variety of other insects, and because I think the temptation to use them as a staple is a little too great for some people because they are so easy to feed — and I definitely don't think they make a good staple. Plus, I just feel more comfortable not feeding them to my beardie after having read so many personal accounts of issues; and until a study is conducted, all I have to go by are personal accounts.
But it really comes down to a personal preference, in the end. Just like with kids, no two people are going to raise their beardies exactly the same, and there are a lot of different thoughts out there about what is best. The only thing you can really do in the absence of controlled studies and proof is make an educated decision.
Do let me know, though, if you discover anything new in your research. I love talking about pet nutrition, it's one of my interests, so I'm always up for a friendly discussion
Taterbug
BD.org Addict
This has always confused me because nutritionally meal-worms and super-worms are rather similar and meal-worms are far from being nutritionally void. Similar to onceblue I don't actually feed them, I have too many bugs as it is and raise supers instead.
A lot of the claims about digestibility and issues with given feeders are anecdotal, personal accounts. Not to say they aren't true but that there are many many factors that don't get considered and just one thing ends up blamed. Try as we might nutritional deficiencies (including chronic low D3 or other key vitamins), husbandry issues (low temperatures, inadequate space to exercise), dehydration, inappropriate prey size or quantities are probably more common than we think. With most husbandry advice leading to a salad based on a handful of greens high in nutritional antagonists, supplement schedules with little analytical backing, insects selected for or fed according to convenience, temperatures that are likely much lower than what wild dragons would select and offering scheduled baths instead of free choice drinking water it is not really a shock some animals have such trouble digesting.
Dr. Mark Finke has several papers about invertebrates and nutrition, they are worth the read even if they don't directly answer the question at hand. (Most are behind a pay wall, a local public, university or school library, may be able to help you access the articles. If you can't and are interested please PM me) They include detailed assays and discussions for less common feeders as well as reference material realting to the topcs. Complete nutrient composition of commercially raised invertebrates used as food for insectivores This one has details about the BSFL and Butterworms. BSFLare actually a decently studied insect, they are used for waste management, fish food and chicken feed. However, most studies are interested in their efficiency of turning food waste or animal manure into feed. It really does make me wonder what the name-brands are feeding their miracle worms. However, DIY culturing instructions and even commercially available compost bins are available on homesteading and chicken-oriented forums. I started a bin this summer, they are quite easy and really actually pretty nasty. As far as ploys of the commercial feeder industry don't even get me started on butterworms... Much to my disappointment I have yet to find a credible analysis of the darling of the pet trade - dubia roaches.
Complete Nutrient Content of Four Species of Feeder Insects
Gut loading to enhance the nutrient content of insects as food for reptiles: A mathematical approach
Complete Nutrient Content of Four Species ofCommercially Available Feeder Insects Fed Enhanced Diets During Growth
Evaluation of Four Dry Commercial Gut Loading Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus
Evaluation of Varius Calcium-fortified High Moisture Commercial Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus
This one may be of particular interest to this discussion.
Estimate of chitin in raw whole insects
A lot of the claims about digestibility and issues with given feeders are anecdotal, personal accounts. Not to say they aren't true but that there are many many factors that don't get considered and just one thing ends up blamed. Try as we might nutritional deficiencies (including chronic low D3 or other key vitamins), husbandry issues (low temperatures, inadequate space to exercise), dehydration, inappropriate prey size or quantities are probably more common than we think. With most husbandry advice leading to a salad based on a handful of greens high in nutritional antagonists, supplement schedules with little analytical backing, insects selected for or fed according to convenience, temperatures that are likely much lower than what wild dragons would select and offering scheduled baths instead of free choice drinking water it is not really a shock some animals have such trouble digesting.
Dr. Mark Finke has several papers about invertebrates and nutrition, they are worth the read even if they don't directly answer the question at hand. (Most are behind a pay wall, a local public, university or school library, may be able to help you access the articles. If you can't and are interested please PM me) They include detailed assays and discussions for less common feeders as well as reference material realting to the topcs. Complete nutrient composition of commercially raised invertebrates used as food for insectivores This one has details about the BSFL and Butterworms. BSFLare actually a decently studied insect, they are used for waste management, fish food and chicken feed. However, most studies are interested in their efficiency of turning food waste or animal manure into feed. It really does make me wonder what the name-brands are feeding their miracle worms.
However, DIY culturing instructions and even commercially available compost bins are available on homesteading and chicken-oriented forums. I started a bin this summer, they are quite easy and really actually pretty nasty. As far as ploys of the commercial feeder industry don't even get me started on butterworms... Much to my disappointment I have yet to find a credible analysis of the darling of the pet trade - dubia roaches. Complete Nutrient Content of Four Species of Feeder Insects
Gut loading to enhance the nutrient content of insects as food for reptiles: A mathematical approach
Complete Nutrient Content of Four Species ofCommercially Available Feeder Insects Fed Enhanced Diets During Growth
Evaluation of Four Dry Commercial Gut Loading Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus
Evaluation of Varius Calcium-fortified High Moisture Commercial Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus
This one may be of particular interest to this discussion.
Estimate of chitin in raw whole insects
cynikalkat
Member
This is a great post to read as I just had an awful experience at a herp. shop. I got yelled at for feeding Milla (2-3 yr old female) mealworms. She eats crickets, mealworms occasionally (she loves them), and veggies and fruit. "Do you want to kill your beardie," is what this woman asked me, in a hostile tone. I had to argue with her about it b/c each and every single person I meet says something different. They are used more as a treat for Milla, although right now she seems to ONLY want to eat them (she's going into brumation I think, eats about once or twice every other day). I am still giving her a bowl of veggies but I am not sure she's actually eating any. Anyway, this was an informative but ****ty experience. The teenager I dealt with was very nice and explained to me why (they think) mealworms are bad for beardies; whereas the older woman (perhaps his mother) was downright rude and obviously set in her ways. I wound up going home with d. roaches and we'll see how that goes. I will be more steadfast about giving her a variety of fruits and veggies though.
Again, thank you previous posters.
Again, thank you previous posters.
onceblue
Hatchling Member
Taterbug - Thanks so much for all of those links. It looks like I have a lot of reading to do! I'm pretty excited, I've had a hard time finding studies, and the one about the chitin content in mealworms is particularly interesting, going by the quote you posted.
It's interesting that you mentioned butterworms in regard to the commercial ploys of the feeder industy. I was just talking to someone in another group about how butterworms should only be used as treats because they are high in fat (and I actually used that article that you linked as a source, as I had found it previously), and they insisted that butterworms were the best possible staple for beardies and that they weren't high in fat at all. I asked them where they got their info from, and they said it was a "well-respected vendor" — so it seems there's more pushing of insects going on in the industry than I originally thought! I personally love butterworms because they can be kept in the refrigerator which is very convenient, but I would never feed them as a staple due to fat content. I only feed them sparingly as treats to my beardie.
Also, cynikalkat - I'll never understand why people can be so rude when they're (at least in their mind) trying to "educate" a person. Even if she's trying to help, being rude is not going to get someone to listen.
It's interesting that you mentioned butterworms in regard to the commercial ploys of the feeder industy. I was just talking to someone in another group about how butterworms should only be used as treats because they are high in fat (and I actually used that article that you linked as a source, as I had found it previously), and they insisted that butterworms were the best possible staple for beardies and that they weren't high in fat at all. I asked them where they got their info from, and they said it was a "well-respected vendor" — so it seems there's more pushing of insects going on in the industry than I originally thought! I personally love butterworms because they can be kept in the refrigerator which is very convenient, but I would never feed them as a staple due to fat content. I only feed them sparingly as treats to my beardie.
Also, cynikalkat - I'll never understand why people can be so rude when they're (at least in their mind) trying to "educate" a person. Even if she's trying to help, being rude is not going to get someone to listen.
Taterbug
BD.org Addict
onceblue":32o2ucpz said:
I've had the the butterworm convo many a time. Anything that doesn't need to eat for months simply can't be low fat... still, that's not to say they should never be fed. I think you have a great mindset on it. This is such a poorly regulated industry it's strange to me what gets accepted or rejected. Interestingly, I asked a few vendors where the info came from, it's supplied by the Chilean exporters
. Dr. Finke is actually really approachable if you have questions about his papers.- Status
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Mirage came out of brumation on April 26. He was doing great. On May 2 he started acting funny. We just redid his tank, and he keeps going into one of his hides. He just lays there. He shows no intrest in food. HELP!
