Here is the link of the new feeding method which severely restricts the amount given to baby beardies and the rationale behind it.

[AHBD]

For anyone that wonders why the size is so important with hatchlings and small babies it's because they can swallow a larger insect but can't really chew it or digest. This can lead to paralysis and quick death.

I don't use dubia for my dragons but for adults they can eat the larger prey items and bend that rule but dubia are much meatier and are equivalent to several large crickets to one large dubia. It's probably too much protein at once and not really necessary for a sub adult or adult.

 

[NickAVD]

Thank you! I will continue to feed small dubias which are about the same size as crickets. To be sure, I also feed crickets, hornworms and locusts. Dubia is not the only insect in his diet.

 

[AHBD]

You can definitely use medium dubia regularly and even a large now + then . There are no super set in stone rules but common sense suggestions for safe care also includes feeding methods. Even the number of insects is flexible but not to go to the severely restricted diet where they only feed a baby 4-5 insects every other day.

 

[NickAVD]

You can definitely use medium dubia regularly and even a large now + then . There are no super set in stone rules but common sense suggestions for safe care also includes feeding methods. Even the number of insects is flexible but not to go to the severely restricted diet where they only feed a baby 4-5 insects every other day.

Yes, I understand. You need to have a reasonable instinct so as not to overfeed and not leave hungry

 

[xp29]

What I have observed in my dragons (all adult, so im not talking about hatchlings, I agree 100% with AHBD on their food size) My adults will all chew dubias and supers very throughly. Zen is a big dragon, I give him jumbos and he chews them up and eats them with zero issue. He hates supers. Sweet Pea loves supers, she chews them into oblivion, so does Snickers. Ruby hates supers, but will occasionally eat dubias. She is a small dragon so I give her medium or large. She chews them enough to not be an issue. Sinatra goes crazy for silkworms but will occasionally eat hard bodied bugs he chews those, but not so much the silks or horns.
Soft bodied bugs 5 for 5 they bite in the middle, chomp shaking their head till they get to one end and then pretty much swallow them whole.
I've had to stop setting the container with the hornworms in the habitat as I feed because Snickers has attacked them and snatched the gianormoues ones a couple times and had trouble getting them down. Now I set the container on top out of their reach. (I hand feed insects 98% of the time, feeding is one of the great joys of keeping them).
Hatchlings however sould be called hoovers instead of Hatchlings because they inhale everything. I doubt they even taste a bug till they are 6 months old lol. I think like AHBD said the size guidelines are far more important for babies. After they are big enough that they will slow down and chew it's more flexible. Heck some people (I'm not one of them) feed their females pinky mice after they clutch.

 

[AHBD]

Yeah, big dragons can eat big bugs for sure. The warning still stands about over feeding them with more than they need as they develop super thick tails + legs and constantly bulging bellies. That's not a sign of a healthy beardie.

 

[xp29]

Yeah, big dragons can eat big bugs for sure. The warning still stands about over feeding them with more than they need as they develop super thick tails + legs and constantly bulging bellies. That's not a sign of a healthy beardie.

I only give Zen the dubias a couple times in a 10 day period, he does have a thick tail but his legs are decently muscular. He can haul azz when he wants to (it usually involves seeing one of the girls lol) I offer him hornworms daily. Some days he eats them some he don't. He is almost impossible to get water into even with the eyedropper and fruit punch so I give him hornworms for hydration. He has gotten WAY better with his greens lately so I'll probably trim the hornworms back some.
They vet continually tells me he is not obese and I dont want him to be so I don't offer dubias to often and never more than 2 jumbos or 4 to 5 large. (The large from the stores here are the size of mediums everywhere else)

 

[NickAVD]

I only give Zen the dubias a couple times in a 10 day period, he does have a thick tail but his legs are decently muscular. He can haul azz when he wants to (it usually involves seeing one of the girls lol) I offer him hornworms daily. Some days he eats them some he don't. He is almost impossible to get water into even with the eyedropper and fruit punch so I give him hornworms for hydration. He has gotten WAY better with his greens lately so I'll probably trim the hornworms back some.
They vet continually tells me he is not obese and I dont want him to be so I don't offer dubias to often and never more than 2 jumbos or 4 to 5 large. (The large from the stores here are the size of mediums everywhere else)

Does Zen eat any other bugs besides dubia and how often?

 

[xp29]

Does Zen eat any other bugs besides dubia and how often?

Yeah, he loves hornworms and silkworms and he will do back flips and stand on his head for a grasshopper lol.

 

[hdochow]

Yeah, he loves hornworms and silkworms and he will do back flips and stand on his head for a grasshopper lol.

VIDEO PLEASE!!!

 

[Axil]

I haven't had a chance to watch the video in the OP but I did watch the 4 hour video that I believe they are pulling the info from.

One of the take aways was while "bearded vet" recommended smaller feeding portions he made a point to caveat most of his concerns like calcium deficiency as not being applicable *if* the overall nutrition was correct.

His point was if you are having to add supplements to the diet like we do for Dragons the quicker the animal is growing the more important it is to make sure those ratios are correct.

A dragon growing an inch in 2 weeks is less likely to develop MBD symptoms during that time than one that grew 4 inches as it's not having to utilize nearly as much calcium for slow growth.

It seems odd to me to flip the entire feeding paradigm on it's head and say this is *the way* to feed a Bearded Dragon when the Dragons being fed this way haven't had time to live thier lives and compare health outcomes against what has been done previously.

I'm really tired of hearing the term "naturalistic" from supposed representatives of the scientific community. Just because an animal experiences certain conditions in the wild absolutely does not mean that's the ideal environment for that animal.

The same people who tell you natural is always better will handwave away the fact Dragon's live longer in captivity by telling you that's because of predation. Where is the data supporting that? Who is going around documenting every wild bearded dragon death and attributing the vast majority to predation as opposed to starvation, disease or any number of other causes.

Overall I was very disappointed in the lack of data, though again I only saw the original interview not the video linked here.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Thanks AHBD for posting the link for the video. I will try to watch, when possible.
I am with you & others' views on the complete opposite of the original approach. Why can't there
just be a feed in moderation approach? Is that not what we humans are supposed to do, for optimal
health anyway?
The wild environment is brutal & not only do they have to battle the weather conditions, & predators,
but oncoming cars that hit many of them. Our job as keepers are to enrich their lifespans, & learn how
to better improve their lives.
A major concern that I believe I have mentioned in several posts is that I feel a large problem causing
early death, gout or other health problems in the youngsters today is genetically modified foods. It is
also causing cancer & tumors, too. The GMO foods use the insecticide, Round Up which kills bees &
other insects causing their intestines to explode. Now, what on earth do you think it would do to animals,
as well as humans? The GMO foods cause a myriad of health problems & most of the commercial feeds
for insect gutload, bearded dragon & other reptile pellets, all contain soy, corn, & other fillers from the
genetically modified crops. These foods will lead to organ damage & failure.


Tracie

 

[xp29]

VIDEO PLEASE!!!

Unfortunately the grasshoppers population is pretty much gone for the year now. Even when they are here, I have drive miles out in the desert away from civilization to collect them. I don't want to run the risk of pesticides. I usually bring back 50ish, they would be gone in 1 day if I let them eat all they wanted lol.

 

[xp29]

I haven't had a chance to watch the video in the OP but I did watch the 4 hour video that I believe they are pulling the info from.

One of the take aways was while "bearded vet" recommended smaller feeding portions he made a point to caveat most of his concerns like calcium deficiency as not being applicable *if* the overall nutrition was correct.

His point was if you are having to add supplements to the diet like we do for Dragons the quicker the animal is growing the more important it is to make sure those ratios are correct.

A dragon growing an inch in 2 weeks is less likely to develop MBD symptoms during that time than one that grew 4 inches as it's not having to utilize nearly as much calcium for slow growth.

It seems odd to me to flip the entire feeding paradigm on it's head and say this is *the way* to feed a Bearded Dragon when the Dragons being fed this way haven't had time to live thier lives and compare health outcomes against what has been done previously.

I'm really tired of hearing the term "naturalistic" from supposed representatives of the scientific community. Just because an animal experiences certain conditions in the wild absolutely does not mean that's the ideal environment for that animal.

The same people who tell you natural is always better will handwave away the fact Dragon's live longer in captivity by telling you that's because of predation. Where is the data supporting that? Who is going around documenting every wild bearded dragon death and attributing the vast majority to predation as opposed to starvation, disease or any number of other causes.

Overall I was very disappointed in the lack of data, though again I only saw the original interview not the video linked here.

Very well said. Personally I didn't watch the docs video. I was more mad at the secondary guy that is spreading bad info. I know he means well, but that doesn't change the fact he is wrong.
You touched on a point I was making also. Until they follow every beardie birth to death, WE spend more time observing them than they do. We might not all be doctors but I guarantee we take more interest in there well being than some scientists.

 

[NickAVD]

Very well said. Personally I didn't watch the docs video. I was more mad at the secondary guy that is spreading bad info. I know he means well, but that doesn't change the fact he is wrong.
You touched on a point I was making also. Until they follow every beardie birth to death, WE spend more time observing them than they do. We might not all be doctors but I guarantee we take more interest in there well being than some scientists.

I think that... If this *secondary guy* was placed in the wild, he would weigh 2 times less. It turns out he eats too much. Maybe he should go on a diet himself?
I'm sorry if this sounds a little rude
I just want to show with a simple example how flawed the presented logic is...