Lime as a treatment for yellow fungus

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AHBD

BD.org Sicko
I don't know enough about lime to be for or against it, but if the O.P.'s vet is a top of the line then maybe they are trying something that has a small amount that can be of some help if used in a certain controlled way.

We humans use very toxic chemo drugs to combat cancer and even rat poison [ Warfarin ] as a blood thinner. They had to be used somewhere on someone first. As for the lime, I doubt anyone would Google Y.F, see this thread and run out to buy some just from reading this.

And I agree that there is much better dialogue, exchange of thoughts and possible new things learned [ and new posters staying here+ feeling free to express their concerns] if they are not met with such aggressive replies which are becoming more + more common lately. Pwermer, please update as you are able and best wishes to your + your dragon. And you can always p.m the mods. [ Drache613 is very helpful, understands + can read extensive bloodwork, etc ] and report if you feel that you are being barraged by unwanted criticism.

This must be very distressing for you, but hang in there.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
EllenD":320cws1j said:
Look, all I am saying, from a strictly scientific and medical standpoint is that hydrated lime has a pH of 12.4, which is absolutely basic enough to cause severe chemical burns which you probably won't see on a scaled lizard like you would on a person. 12.4 is basic enough to really cause pain, and you have no idea what it is doing to your bearded dragon. You cannot possibly be sure that "dusting" your beardie in dry lime (I guess that's what you're doing, as no moisture can be involved if you want to keep the pH of dry lime, which is between 8.0-9.0) is not causing burns, as you cannot be sure that none of that dry lime isn't still on him, under his s ales, etc. when you wet him again. And regardless of the chemical burns, external treatment of yellow fungus alone will typically not eradicate the Infection, only lessen or "seemingly" eradicate the external signs and symptoms. And this is the same issue people have when simply soaking their infected Beardies in Betadine and then applying a topical antifungal medication to yellow fungus, it treats the external Infection but not the internal, and eventually it comes roaring back. And then it turns into the typical battle that lasts for months to years.

<<< I agree - the moment the stuff is applied to the skin, it will start taking up moisture from the air , and it will start reacting, the finer the powder , the higher the specific surface area ==> the more hydrophilic and reactive it becomes !... B.Sc Chemistry (Hons) & B.Sc Physics and B.E Chem Engg , sure I'm not a vet , I expect I know much more about chemistry than any vet.

So unless they can assure this dusting is done under extra dry air ( relative humidity much less than 10% ) I don't see how you can avoid alkali burns to beardie's skin, powder your own skin with it and let it sit there for a while and you'll soon have problems that washing with water wont help. I've handled (using safety gear at all times) lime / powdered foam and granulated form - very good deccicant) in a fume hood which had extremely dry air fed into it and the stuff still reacted ... so I can tell you this is very hard to do.

They might believe in alternative medicine. If it's not mainstream , it's not for good reasons.

I'd be very reluctant to allow "a vet" to use any of my pets as a guinea pick for a speculative treatment especially where they can not guarantee the owner can do things under STRICT laboratory controls in their home.

But the long and the short of this is it's their pet, not mine. All I can do is offer my educated and considered opinion , if they choose to ignore it and that offered by other knowledgeable people, then injuries caused are on them and their quack.
Who does the suffering - the pet bearded dragon :(

Please - do not inflict this on your beardie


Let's be real for a second, if we could. No science, no medicine, no education, but just some common sense for a minute, okay? Because honestly this is actually the more important issue with this post, to me anyway:

So someone thinks their beardie, who they love dearly, has Yellow Fungus. They compare their beardie to photos online, and they cannot afford or are unwilling to take their pet to a proper Herp Vet, or any vet for that matter. So they come on here and search for "Yellow Fungus" and they read the hundreds of posts recommending Betadine soaks, applying antifungal creams, etc. So they do all of the normal treatments and they help for a while, maybe their Beardies even appear cured of the fungus, but because they have gotten their pet no oral or injectable medications in combination to the external treatments, the yellow fungus just keeps coming back. Then one day while they are desperately searching for an answer because their beardie is dying and they're panicking, they see your post title that says "Lime As a Treatment For Yellow Fungus"...What do you think they're going to do? Do you think they're going to do a ton more research on the topic? Read this entire thread and realize that not only is this treatment unproven and at the least needs to be combined with an oral or injectable medication as well to be effective, but do you think they will really understand that you're not soaking your beardie in a solution of lime? Or making a cream or paste of lime to rub onto their Beardies? There's no instructions provided here as to what exactly you're procedures are, no warnings provided about what might happen if they apply wet lime to their Beardies, etc. I guarantee you that they'll see the phrase "Lime as a treatment for yellow fungus" and "recommended by my Reptile vet" and off some teenager goes to their garage to grab some of the lime their parents put on their lawns, and sure as I'm writing this they'll mix it in water and either soak their beardie's entire body in it or they'll make a paste of it and lather it on all of their beardie's external lesions.

This is where I'm coming from. I don't think that I was at all wrong in what I said sir. I was not rude, I didn't swear or use strong language, I said "Please don't apply lime to your beardie" and "It's torturous to do so". And I counted at least 2 other members that said exactly the same thing that did originally, and well regarded and knowledgeable members at that. And it's true, if you were to apply wet lime to any living creature and either leave it on them or soak them in it, that would be nothing less than "Torturous". Period.

I don't at all think you're an animal abuser or whatever it was that you said, I never said anything like that. I know very well that you're trying to cure your beardie of a nasty fungi that is incredibly difficult to eradicate. But posting this thread with that title and actually arguing that it could not be potentially harmful or torturous to bearded dragons and saying it is "recommended by your Reptile vet" is not telling the entire story that needs to be told to the many desperate beardie owners that have a lizard with yellow fungus, and the that come on here, panicking, trying everything they can to cure their beloved Beardies that have yellow fungus. You need to tell both sides to this story in order to be responsible, because I guarantee that someone has most likely already read this post and lathered their sick beardie up in wet lime and has caused horrible chemical burns to their pet. 12.4 is very basic and certainly high enough to cause a lot of pain.

As someone else stated, I find it very difficult to believe that any reputable vet that cares about their medical license would actually recommend using this as a legitimate treatment for yellow fungus. There are no scientific studies, no data on the long-term effects or the efficacy for that matter, and the minute a vet told their paying patients to do this and the patients got confused and used wet lime on their lizard and caused horrible chemical burns or worse, that vet would certainly be sued and at the very least be investigated by the licensing board. I think that's where everyone who has questioned your vet is coming from.

Try to understand both sides of this and the great responsibility you take on by endorsing a treatment that is absolutely "torturous" if the person attempting it makes what I'd say is frankly a very easy and understandable mistake to make. Adding moisture to lime powder. It's that simple a mistake that has disasterous outcomes.

As I said in my email to you, applying hydrochloric acid to external Yellow Fungus lesions would probably eradicate the external Infection as well. Does that mean we should do it?
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Just a few questions here. You have used Voriconazole, correct? How long? What about Itraconazole, that hits it a bit differently.
Did they determine which strain of yellow fungus?
What type of powdered mix/solution was your vet concocting, I assume he was greatly diluting it for safety?
I have a couple of suggestions for help with fungus, per alternative or holistic approaches. Success on humans has been seen with use of Grapefruit seed extract being used both internally as well as externally. It is safe & non toxic.
Monolaurin or Lauric acid, a derivative from Coconut oil, is extremely promising for fighting fungus.
This too can be used internally as well as externally also & is safe & non toxic.

I am starting to feel that a lot of conventional medications, with a few exceptions, just do not cut it with reptiles. I see that reptiles respond more positively with allopathic medicine over western medicine.
Does he have any studies on this that I could read??
Do you have any pictures? Sorry for your dragon, it's a nightmare I know.

Tracie
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Pwerner":2d57t2sf said:
I appreciate all of the non judgmental and open ended posts regarding the question. First and foremost, this was a question posed for input on thoughts that are based on experience. I respect all experience and appreciate the input. I do not appreciate aggressive and rude comments made by one individual posing to know it all. I am using a well known and respected reptile vet, that is one in the forefront of science with numerous patents to the veterinary medical / medicine field and is by no means a quack. IF you had read carefully Ms. E. no where did it say that lime would be wet when applied, it clearly stated a soak then dried and powder applied to dry body. <<<< powdered lime is HIGHLY HYDROPHILIC , has a very high effective surface area which make it even more reactive and hydrophilic , I can guarantee based on many years of chemistry laboratory experience , the instant it's applied to the skin it will start taking up moisture from the skin and from the air and it will no longer be "dry"

Please look up calcium hydroxide.
13Safety and Hazards
13.1Hazards Identification
13.1.1GHS Classification
Signal: Danger

GHS Hazard Statements
Aggregated GHS information from 44 notifications provided by 3693 companies to the ECHA C&L Inventory. Each notification may be associated with multiple companies.

H314 (23.4%): Causes severe skin burns and eye damage [Danger Skin corrosion/irritation - Category 1A, B, C]
H315 (47.5%): Causes skin irritation [Warning Skin corrosion/irritation - Category 2]
H318 (76.69%): Causes serious eye damage [Danger Serious eye damage/eye irritation - Category 1]
H335 (39.99%): May cause respiratory irritation [Warning Specific target organ toxicity, single exposure; Respiratory tract irritation - Category



Your speaking as if myself or others are torturing animals is uncalled for and rude. The people on this discussion are caring individuals looking for advice, experience etc to help these animals, not hurt them, hence the reason for a discussion forum, and it not being a veterinary forum, for you yourself with a health science degree are still not a vet nor do you know all of the most recent research. Another mention to a Quack vet for essential oils is also not a comment based on knowledge. <<< essential oils are alternative "medicine" and not mainstream for very good reasons .
Essential oils are used on humans and animals alike especially when other means have not worked. I think I will stick to my vets recommendations considering I can see and check on their credentials that hang on their walls.
 

Pwerner

Member
Original Poster
Ellen D- your responses to people are condescending and rude and when you speak/ blog to people in that manner, you supposed expertise goes out the window. Spend some more time doing some serious research with some of the worlds leading reptologists and you might just learn something
 

Crowley

Member
Beardie name(s)
Crowley
Obviously you don't like being told facts here backed by multiple people, regardless of where they come from. In my opinion EllenD was being very respectful, if a little frantic at the fact that you were going to chemically burn your dragon. You asked for our advice and we gave it, but yet you still go with the ONE opinion you recieved from your vet (vs several, coming from people who actually care about this dragons well being) because.... he's a vet? And then you take out personal attacks on everyone pleading with you to not potentially cause horrific harm to your dragon?

I would take a closer look at your vet's "qualifications" because I'm willing to bet they are certificates purchased online to make quack doctors look like real ones.

Regardless, you are unwilling to change your mind, so why did you bother coming to this forum again? You are going to critically injure your dragon anyway. And I guarentee he will die before you can get him to that money mooching vet for treatment. He might even die before your eyes.

Some people just shouldn't have pets.
 

Gormagon

Extreme Poster
At the risk of not sounding as super educated as some of the posters on this subject seem to be or say they are I'm going to write what I have noticed and read.
I am not for or against anything but, what I have read, lime is basically like chalk "UNTIL" it is kiln fired or water is added and, kiln fired. This process makes it caustic, so if it has not been fired it would lead me to believe that it would be a drying agent in its natural form. I have been covered it wet lime (in its natural state) and the only thing I felt was dirty, no itching, burning or, other, lol! No, I would never condone the use of quicklime or hydrated lime, these are the ones that will burn you.
My question to you all is...... What if it works, what would you say then?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Trying really hard to keep this as simple as possible so even the youngest forum members will follow and understand.

Chalk is CaCO3 (more specially it's calcite).

Lime is Ca(OH)2.

In its hydrated state, lime is calcium hydroxide, and in its pure state it is called calcium oxide, or quicklime.

Quicklime is CaO = calcium oxide.

Hydrated Lime is Ca(OH)2 .


Sorry but these are entirely different compounds with entirely different properties and solubilities. This is simple high school chemistry , you don't need a bachelors' degree in science to know this stuff. The only similarity between all these is each molecule contains a Calcium ion and some oxygen ions .

A tiny bit of chemistry :
Ca(OH)2 → Ca2+ + 2 OH−
and
CaO + H2O → Ca(OH)2
this is what happens in contact with water.

The fact that the OP or their "vet" never posted even a single link or citation to a credible peer refereed study where lime was used to treat YF (as requested by our resident vet) to support their claims says a lot IMO.
 

Gormagon

Extreme Poster
kingofnobbys":3bm5ewr0 said:
Trying really hard to keep this as simple as possible so even the youngest forum members will follow and understand.

Chalk is CaCO3 (more specially it's calcite).

Lime is Ca(OH)2.

In its hydrated state, lime is calcium hydroxide, and in its pure state it is called calcium oxide, or quicklime.

Quicklime is CaO = calcium oxide.

Hydrated Lime is Ca(OH)2 .


Sorry but these are entirely different compounds with entirely different properties and solubilities. This is simple high school chemistry , you don't need a bachelors' degree in science to know this stuff. The only similarity between all these is each molecule contains a Calcium ion and some oxygen ions .

The fact that the OP or their "vet" never posted even a single link or citation to a credible peer refereed study where lime was used to treat YF (as requested by our resident vet) to support their claims says a lot IMO.
As I said, it is "basically" chalk, didn't say it "was" chalk. I know they are all 4 different.
Lime is a calcium-containing inorganic material in which carbonates, oxides, and hydroxides predominate. In the strict sense of the term, lime is calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide. It is also the name of the natural mineral (native lime) CaO which occurs as a product of coal seam fires and in altered limestone xenoliths in volcanic ejecta.[1] The word lime originates with its earliest use as building mortar and has the sense of sticking or adhering.[2]

These materials are still used in large quantities as building and engineering materials (including limestone products, cement, concrete, and mortar), as chemical feedstocks, and for sugar refining, among other uses. Lime industries and the use of many of the resulting products date from prehistoric times in both the Old World and the New World. Lime is used extensively for wastewater treatment with ferrous sulfate.

The rocks and minerals from which these materials are derived, typically limestone or chalk, are composed primarily of calcium carbonate. They may be cut, crushed, or pulverized and chemically altered. Burning (calcination) converts them into the highly caustic material quicklime (calcium oxide, CaO) and, through subsequent addition of water, into the less caustic (but still strongly alkaline) slaked lime or hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2), the process of which is called slaking of lime. Lime kilns are the kilns used for lime burning and slaking.

When the term is encountered in an agricultural context, it usually refers to agricultural lime, which is crushed limestone, not a product of a lime kiln. Otherwise it most commonly means slaked lime, as the more dangerous form is usually described more specifically as quicklime or burnt lime.
And who on here is a vet?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Gormagon":3ncjh7a8 said:
kingofnobbys":3ncjh7a8 said:
..
..
..

Sorry but these are entirely different compounds with entirely different properties and solubilities. This is simple high school chemistry , you don't need a bachelors' degree in science to know this stuff. The only similarity between all these is each molecule contains a Calcium ion and some oxygen ions .

The fact that the OP or their "vet" never posted even a single link or citation to a credible peer refereed study where lime was used to treat YF (as requested by our resident vet) to support their claims says a lot IMO.

As I said, it is "basically" chalk, didn't say it "was" chalk. I know they are all 4 different.
And who on here is a vet?

That is incorrect - there is a very large difference so it is not even basically chalk.

I THINK , and it's been my training (drummed into me at uni and when training as an analytical chemist, and later as a chemical engineer) , that it's VERY important to be very precise when talking chemistry. If you mean chalk , say chalk, if you mean lime , specify which kind and the concentration of it or it's grade.

I am referring to Drache613 , unless I am mistaken.
 

Pwerner

Member
Original Poster
It is evident that many of you choose to take a question and create a cause. We can all look up what lime is and what it does, however many of you are not educated about uses of lime. Secondly the vet is very up to date, has an office, is referred to on many reptile sites for their expertise and has excellent results, not to mention many patents along with several veterinary patents shared with myself and several others. Do your own research by actually speaking to some of the top reptologists instead of google. I will take their data and exact stats with their credentials over the lack of knowledge any day.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Have you posted any pictures of him yet? What are you doing for him at the moment, is he still on an oral anti-fungal right now?
I am not a vet but just have a passion for reptiles! I have a few degrees & certifications but not in reptile medicine, just human physiology, etc. :D
I really would like to see any papers, etc your vet has because I am always interested to learn new things, techniques & other experimental information.

Thanks,
Tracie
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Pwerner":2pevqcm1 said:
It is evident that many of you choose to take a question and create a cause. We can all look up what lime is and what it does, however many of you are not educated about uses of lime. Secondly the vet is very up to date, has an office, is referred to on many reptile sites for their expertise and has excellent results, not to mention many patents along with several veterinary patents shared with myself and several others. Do your own research by actually speaking to some of the top reptologists instead of google. I will take their data and exact stats with their credentials over the lack of knowledge any day.

again .... not exactly peer reviewed scientific and controlled studies, I see nothing in your response that has shown any good reason to even try this treatment and lots of good reasons not to --- safety of your beardies skin and eyes and lungs being the prime reasons.. I advise at the very least -- seek a second opinion from another reptile vet .

I remain in the skeptics camp unless I see some citations to scientific papers supporting the claim.
 
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