Do they like being pet?

[Elisa]

Just wondering if my BD really likes or dislikes being handled/pet? He'll actually close his eyes and it seems that he enjoys it but I am wondering if he is stressed out and that is why he is closing his eyes. Any thoughts?

 

[kingofnobbys]

Just wondering if my BD really likes or dislikes being handled/pet? He'll actually close his eyes and it seems that he enjoys it but I am wondering if he is stressed out and that is why he is closing his eyes. Any thoughts?

Dead give aways of enjoyment are :
---- slowed down breathing (relaxing)
---- displaying happy colours

All my beardies relax and brighten up when having snuggles and being petted .... so I'm pretty sure they like it.

 

[Taterbug]

Reptiles don't have the same social structures and social grooming mammals have and don't have the same responses. Especially eye closing can be a avoidance/submissive behavior rather than contentment. Pay attention to posture, reactions like flinching can be subtle, do they move into or away from or sortof sag at touch? Alert but relaxed posture, relaxed movements instead of jerky or frozen movement.

Pepper tolerates being pet on the back but doesn't care for his head or sides touched.

 

[ruben0311]

Fred doesn't actively seek out contact however being relaxed with their human might be considered being "happy", although i just see it as being comfortable. I think its all subjective anyho

 

[kingofnobbys]

I think I must have very special bonds with all my pet lizards, they all actively seek contact with me when they have had enough fun time on the floor, and will come right up to me and look up at my eyes to ask me to pick them up for quality daddy time and they do the same (but not as often) to my wife.

Rex will , given the change follow my wife into the bedroom or the study (especially the study), if she goes there, and I put Rex onto the floor , she will often promptly head up the hallway looking to find my wife and will seek her out.

 

[Rankins]

Tater!! That sounds like something I would say
I concur, I have had reptiles that would shut their eyes and go into a coma like state from over stimulation. It's like their brain just shuts off...many times I thought they had died.
I know it's not a popular thing to say here, we all want to ascribe human/mammal characteristics upon our reptiles.
Who knows for sure though, none of us are reptiles...

 

[Taterbug]

I do think reptiles have a lot more capability than traditional views give them credit for but especially with human interaction it's good to keep a bit of objectivity.

There are also going to be a wide range of factors involved in "socializing" reptiles - such as how much free will they have in interaction. Just like any other animal we can use condition in good or bad way. Some dragons I am sure are genuinely willing participants or have some level of bond with their keepers but I have a suspicion that many are simply resigned to not having any alternatives or ways to avoid unwanted interaction (learned helplessness)

 

[travisgould]

Hmm...keeping in mind that they aren't mammals is definitely a good idea, albeit a somewhat disheartening one. We are all so used to mammal companions due to dogs and cats being the usual household favorite. This thread made me rethink my little guy's responses to stimulation. He doesn't flinch or anything, but he does close his eyes and sag down when I pet his back, but not his head. It is so easy to interpret the eye closing and sagging as relaxation and contentment. Also, he nuzzles my neck when he is tired and it is close to bedtime. My mammalian instincts contribute this all to affection, or a least enjoyment. Maybe I should pay a little more attention and keep in mind his heritage, lol


Thanks for the thought-stimulating thread

 

[Taterbug]

This article is about overall welfare but does have some charts about "content" vs "fear/displeasure" responses though some responses can be very subtle. It's a good read and addresses something that can help contribute to overall "happier" pet reptiles.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Phillip_Arena/publication/261987760_Assessing_reptile_welfare_using_behavioral_criteria/links/56d02b4a08ae85c823474776.pdf

 

[travisgould]

Wow that was a great read. Thanks, Taterbug. Defintely opens your eyes to the differences between what they exhibit behaviorally versus what we are programmed to interpret as mammals. I will definitely be paying closer attention when interacting with him so we can better bridge this genetic difference

 

[SHBailey]

Interesting discussion everyone...
I just have to chime in with my opinion (for whatever it's worth) that reptiles are at least living sentient beings deserving of consideration, whether they bond affectionately with their human caretakers or not. But it can't hurt to learn more about what their behavioral signals mean, so that we can better understand what they're communicating to us about their needs and wants, and help them to be be as happy and healthy as possible under our care.

BTW, my operating system seems to have a problem with that link you posted, Taterbug -- something about security or safety. If you know it's safe I can override it because I'd like to read it, but did anyone else have any problems with it? (I don't want my poor overworked system administrator/reptile slave husband to end up with even more work to do because of me getting our computer infected with some sort of malware. :? )

 

[Taterbug]

Here is an alternate link - I've never had problems with researchgate but I'm not tech person so maybe this won't throw up an error. http://inpractice.bmj.com/content/inpract/35/3/123.full.pdf

If that doesn't work the title is Assessing reptile welfare using behavioral criteria by Clifford Warwick and is open access so you should be able to google up a non-paywall version somewhere.

 

[SHBailey]

Thanks. That one works and I got it bookmarked and looking forward to reading it to see if I can learn some new things that will help me fine tune the way I handle my beardie. :study:

My husband is really into internet security, so it's possible that he has our operating system set up to run a little on the paranoid side, but that's probably not a bad thing. You can't be too careful these days. :roll:

 

[Rankins]

Good study..
The first few sentences caught my attention. It said "non-domesticated pet species, which includes all reptiles".
I have always thought reptiles could never be considered domesticated as well. I believe they can be habituated to people and surroundings. They may develop behaviors in captivity that would not be present in the wild...such as expecting food when humans near the enclosure, but behaviors like that do not equate to domestication. For the most part I feel reptiles learn to tolerate us...it's forced upon them. We all hope that the forced interaction is not stressful for them...and we do our best to limit that stress. We provide them with an environment that we feel they might enjoy. I try to keep mine naturalistic because my reptile keeping is not focused on making my reptiles "pets". Other keepers provide toys, hammocks, blankets... etc. But I am more interested in observing wild behaviors in a captive environment, so I don't put anything in enclosures that are not present in the wild.
I don't really care if my reptiles like me or not, it's not my goal to "tame" them.
I just try to provide an environment that is as stress free as possible for them. That usually includes minimal interaction from me. I'm okay with that....
But like I said, who really knows what goes on in a reptiles head...we are not reptiles so probably will never know for sure. Maybe cute interactions are something more than just reactions to habituation and I should give more credit to those behaviors....

 

[Taterbug]

This article is interesting in that is speculates that bearded dragons maybe particularly adaptable for captivity as quantified buy stress hormones of captured wild dragons. My interpretation from this and anecdotes from wild dragon observations is they just don't give a flip. Certainly naturally being more tolerant of stress makes them a more tolerant pet than something sensitive like a chameleon or some of the exotic species.

A little off topic but this is also a good article that discusses the importance of enrichment. A stimulating environment/lifestyle is just as important as heat and light for keeping animals both physically and mentally healthy. A few of the linked studies show how enrichment can help the brain and mental resiliency of reptiles which in turn would make unnatural circumstances like handling and being pet less stressful for them. I also prefer a naturalistic approach, but enclosures don't necessarily need to be "natural" to be enriching. I really like the woven grass hammock/ladder I got recently, and there are many clever things that can be done with bricks, tiles, shelves and boards to make a habitat better.

Lastly I want to emphasis a point made by Rankins. Especially with how different reptiles are from us the line between tame and learned helplessness may be even harder to recognize for us. Learned helplessness is the concept that if an animal (or person) is prohibited from avoiding an unwanted stimulus enough, they just give up and eventually won't even try to run away or avoid it. This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of forced handling (restraining the dragon or otherwise forcing it to interact with its keeper when it doesn't want to)... its not really teaching the lizard to like you, its teaching them they have no choice but to go along with it.

Our understanding of reptiles capability for learned behaviors and their own natural ingenuity is growing, I'm sure our understanding of their 'emotional' lives will too eventually.