Concerned about our baby dragons' size! Please help!

[CEHSTJ]

Hello to all who read this!

After our first bearded dragon baby died due to the fact that the pet store fed him crickets that were much too large for him and he was also housed with wood chip shavings (he died from impaction) :x , the pet store replaced the baby at no cost. The "new" baby was in fact the only baby that survived from that clutch (poor little babies). So, we have had this baby (Smaug) for almost four weeks (will be this Saturday) and we were told that he was two months old when purchased. When I measured Smaug today he is only 6 inches long from snout to the end of his tail. From seeing pictures on this site and from reading the postings this seems awfully small for his age.

What can we do to stimulate Smaug's appetite? Today for example, Smaug ate 7 crickets dusted with calcium supplement with D3 (phosphorus free) and one wax worm. I know wax worms are fatty, but that was the only type of worm besides mealworms (a beardie no-no) that they had at the pet store. We have tried to feed Smaug phoenix worms and he ate one, but had no interest in eating any others, even when offered at other meal times. I also offered Smaug fresh greens (dandelion and mustard) with small pieces of cut up banana added to no avail. Water was administered with an eye dropper until Smaug lost interest and walked away. He also had a bath for half of an hour and drank water when bathing as well. He was so funny in the bath and was splashing the water using his back leg causing the water to fly everywhere. I enjoy the quirks that go along with this species - they seem to be thinking all of the time - maybe plotting revenge for forcing those hideous crickets on them!

If anyone can offer any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated. Everyone on this site seems to have so much knowledge and experience to draw from and it would be great if some of this knowledge could be passed on to us and we can then pass it on to others when needed. I love this site and find myself in tears at times, especially when reading about the rescues or the failing health of some dragons. I am praying for them all. Smaug is the little prince of our house and steals the hearts of all who meet him. At the time we got him I never even thought of adopting a dragon in need - it never crossed my mind. We have two wonderful cats that were both strays and we have had them for four years now. If the right situation were to arise we would definitely adopt a little guy in need. First thing first though and get to know more about how to care for this baby!

Sorry for all of the rambling - it is late and I should really be in bed. If I go to bed though then I would have to put Smaug to bed as well. He is sleeping just below my collar bone on my shirt and my polar fleece sweater is keeping him snug and warm over top of him. He hasn't moved from that spot so I'm assuming he is comfortable and not too hot.

Thank you in advance for those who are patient enough to weed through all of this message and understand what I am asking assistance on! I am anxiously awaiting a reply - Smaug did have his first shed since we have had him. It only took one day (yesterday) and I was quite surprised his colouring never changed to a dull appearance before shedding. I will try to take some pictures tomorrow of him and his home. He is really cute - not the bright coloured morphs that some people have, but very handsome in his own right. Smaug may be a girl though - nothing is defined enough for my novice eyes to make a guess at that yet! Goodnight to all!

:sleepy2:

 

[Embee]

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Fellow owner of a "micro-beardie" here. Ours, due to a poor quality UVB light early on, stalled at 6 inches at three months. She was only eating perhaps 6-8 crickets a day if that, and sleeping a lot. She is now growing and thriving due to changes we made to her enclosure. Six inches at three months is small according to charts, but not overly so. Let's see if we can find out how to help dear Smaug! (the shoulder snuggle is the BEST! :wink: )

Can you tell me about your enclosure? Type and brand of UVB? How are your temps (basking, ambient, cool side), and what are you using to gauge those temps? Size of tank?

How is she behaving otherwise? Is she lethargic, sleeping a lot, retiring early? How often is she basking?

Let's start there.

The best,
Em

 

[CEHSTJ]

Hi Em - thanks for replying!

I had just completed a long list of what his home is like and then poof! It was gone, lost in cyberspace! How depressing! Hmmm! I will try again.

Here is a list of Smaug's environment;

50 gal breeder tank that half of it is blocked until he is bigger
paper towel substrate
I clean out vivarium every other day
basking log, a few rocks and silk plants to add more shade
Mega-Ray MVB 100 Watt for basking and light - also UVA and UVB exposure
basking site on log is 12 inches from light
digital probe that reads 107- 109 directly on basking site and reads 78 - 82 on cooler side in shade, ambient is around 82 - 85
Smaug is fed in separate Rubbermaid container that is white so the feeders show up more
use the same container with a face cloth on the bottom to stand on for baths
warm baths every other day using a cup to remove cool water and add warmer water
stays in bath usually for 20 - 30 minutes - sometimes less but not usually
gut load crickets with gut load food and fresh vegetables and fruit
dust 20 crickets in anticipation that Smaug will eat that many at one feeding
dust crickets 5 times a week at one daily feeding with calcium with D3 (phosphorus free)
dust crickets 2 times a week at one daily feeding with herptivite
crickets have water pillows and blue cricket water stuff (sorry the jars are upstairs and Smaug and I are comfortable right now and I may be a bit lazy :?
offer fresh vegetables daily (usually mustard and dandelion greens) along with small amounts of fruit
tried baby food - no interest
Smaug has mild, calm disposition and doesn't seem scared when we get him out of the tank
I place one finger in front of him and he climbs up on my hand
has white belly the entire time we have Smaug out with us
has a lightly stress marked belly when put back in vivarium that doesn't last long
oh yeah I also add water to the vegetables so they are really wet
drip water at side of his mouth with an eye dropper and when he is finished or bored he walks away
he also drinks water in bath
Smaug basks for about an hour and a half once awake, an hour or so after lunch and also after supper.
we never feed Smaug within two hours of bedtime, same with baths they are done after lunch and Smaug basks after baths as well

That is all I can think of for now! I really must get to bed now! Yikes! Morning will soon be here! :laughing6:

P.S. I hope your little guy is doing well! We had to change Smaug's entire vivarium the second day due to being misinformed! :x We had the compact UVB bulb plus an infrared light for night and the whole bit - what a waste of money - couldn't return it because we bought the floor model! Some pet stores!

Smaug is alert and watches what we are doing. He also runs around when he knows it is food time! The day we bought the Mega-Ray it was like Smaug finally woke up! Strange to see. He also climbs all over us exploring and sometimes can be very fast but will run right up our arm if we place our hand near him. He doesn't seem lethargic or overly sleepy - usually doesn't sleep in the day that much unless he can do it while having his eyes open and turning his head in correlation with movement outside his tank. Tricky character! Gets sleepy around 8 or 9 pm - lights out. We turn on the light in the morning at 7 am.

 

[Embee]

Hey there,

Well, I tell you, Smaug is one pampered beardie! Lovely enclosure stats. Like you, after a false start, I did some homework (thanks to bd.org :mrgreen: ) and our beardie is doing LOVELY now. Eating, and thriving as she should.

One thing that did stand out to me is your calcium, you mentioned it's WITH D3. With the MegaRay MVB, you will need to get some calcium withOUT D3. Good price here: http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-health/105556/rep-cal-ultrafine-calcium-without-vitamin-d3.html The MegaRay emits very strong UVB and will allow beardie to start making D3 on his own, so a supplement of D3 can cause an overdose of the vitamin.

Aside from that, perhaps it will just take Smaug some time to catch up? When did you make the change to the MVB? Our beardie took a week to get her appetite up and running, 2 steps forward, one step back. It's been over a month now and incrementally, she has increased her appetite to a point where I need to start lopping things of MY grocery list to make room for her items!

Only other thing I can recommend is phoenix worms. Many beardies LOVE them, and they have been known to stimulate appetite. Our beardie really started showing interest when we got them a few weeks before putting her under her MVB. Now, she gobbles them. She actually turned her nose up at crickets for a couple of weeks, but now accepts the crickets with just as much excitement. It could be a matter of beardie needing some variety in her/his feeders. PWs are HIGH in natural calcium so no need to dust with calcium, but can be dusted with vites. Here is a thread that is worth a read, if you'd like to consider PWs:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=98632&hilit=

We order from http://www.phoenixworms.com They send quickly, via priority mail, and don't charge for shipping.

Aside from that, have you thought of perhaps having a fecal done? To rule out parasites?

That's all I can think of for now... it IS late, and I too, must get to bed. I'll check back in tomorrow.

The best,
Em

 

[CEHSTJ]

Hello again,

Today is going to be a long day. I think I will go to bed a bit earlier tonight! Thanks for the info on D3. When the boys are at hockey camp tonight I will run over to the pet store to find some calcium without D3. My husband might not be too impressed. This baby dragon seems to cost a lot at the moment. I think that once we have everything right costs will be check ups with the vet and food costs. When we decided to take on the responsibility of a new pet we had to be committed to the costs as well.

Yeah, we are in the process of finding a herp vet and our regular vet is calling a few places as well. Our vet said that if we cannot find one he can do blood tests for us and a fecal as well. He doesn't want to take Smaug on as a regular patient as he doesn't know enough about their behaviour or make up to feel confident in his decisions for possible treatment. At least he is honest and not just guessing.

As for the phoenix worms - we have tried them, but Smaug would only eat one and then had no interest. :| At lunch today he only ate four crickets that were dusted with herptivite. He drank some water as well, once I was sure he wouldn't eat anymore crickets. Smaug seems to be healthy though. He doesn't appear skinny at all and seems to be well hydrated. We purchased the Mega-Ray two days after bringing home the new Smaug. It was a dramatic change in him from the compact light used for the first two days. It really irks me about the life threatening mis-information that some pet stores provide to new owners. I realize we also have to take responsibility to do our research, but I didn't think that the set up would be that drastically different. The only thing that remained the same was the size of the vivarium! rotest: It is too bad that a booklet could not be produced and handed out at the pet stores that would be more consistent across the board for bearded dragon care. I know some people swear by feeding mealworms and using sand and housing more than one beardie together, but why take that risk? I already experienced what can happen if things are not right and watched our first baby dragon die a horrible death. Also this baby is missing a claw on one of his front digits - thankfully that is all!

I'll be off for now, thanks once again for the suggestions!

Cheryl (and Smaug)!

 

[Embee]

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how difficult is was to witness this. We were lucky in that we were able to make the changes to our dragon's enclosure before she shut down entirely. However, in reading the many gut-wrenching posts here, I realize just how close she was to that point of no return. *sigh*

And, I so hear you. We just set up our dragon in her new, larger enclosure with all the right things. It cost of HALF of what the original, poorly equipped enclosure did. Grrrr. To say nothing of the fact that the original enclosure would have surely have had her meeting her doom in short order. Arg, it just really gets to me, the ignorance that abounds in beardie care. I'm so grateful for this place!

I wish I could come up with something else that could be effecting your dragon's appetite, but your enclosure looks to be fantastic, all the good stuff. I wonder if it will just take your dragon sometime to slowly get the appetite increasing?

Do keep us posted.

The best to you!
Em

 

[msmaui]

Your setup and care seem to be perfect. I don't know what else you can do. When my baby was that small, he didn't eat too many crickets either but the Phoenix worms really got him started eating. Since you've already tried those to no avail, I don't know what else to tell you. At least he drinks some water, that's wonderful. Mine still hasn't ever taken a drink. I just have to give him a lot of baths. LOL Oh, one more thing you might try. Kookie likes the little Dragon Bites. They are small squares that look kind of like meat. Your baby might like those. Best of luck with the little one.

Nancy

 

[CEHSTJ]

Thanks for the advice. I will try the dragon bites. We actually have an unopened jar of them that we were going to try on the first baby (the one the pet store had a hand in it's death). I forgot all about it! :shock: Today was a good day and Smaugs' belly was nice and white every time we looked at him and when we had him out for feeding and a bath. He is once again sleeping on my chest/shoulder. He climbed just inside my shirt and turned around and with his head poking out of the opening. I will be going to bed soon! No more late, late. late nights! Hard to function properly in the day. It's funny though - when I was a teenager I could still function if I didn't sleep at all during the night! Getting older isn't always fun (I just turned 35 on April Fool's Day)!

Smaug ate 12 crickets today dusted with herptivite. He was acting spoiled though - he ate half of them hand fed (with really long tweezers) while sitting on my hand. Silly boy! He was just being lazy and I hope he doesn't think that this is going to be a regular thing though!! We went to get calcium without D3 tonight and the pet store we were at had none. I will go to more stores tomorrow when the boys are at school and I have more time.

Tomorrow I will definitely take some photos of Smaug! Perhaps a short video of him eating or bathing! The problem is that I am not sure how to transfer photos/videos from my computer to this site. Any suggestions? If not, I'll ask my ten year old son if he can help. :wink:

I'm going off to bed in a few minutes! I hope that all of your beardies have sweet dreams filled with critters galore for them to chow down on! Take care all!


Cheryl :wave:

 

[Embee]

He climbed just inside my shirt and turned around and with his head poking out of the opening.

Ah, the dear thing! :love5:

I will be going to bed soon! No more late, late. late nights! Hard to function properly in the day. It's funny though - when I was a teenager I could still function if I didn't sleep at all during the night! Getting older isn't always fun (I just turned 35 on April Fool's Day)!

Ah, I hear ya. I just don't bounce back the way I used to in my 20's, that's for sure. And hey, Happy Belated Birthday! I missed April Fools by 30 minutes, I turned 42 on April 2nd. :mrgreen: And I MUST be getting to bed earlier tonight too!

Smaug ate 12 crickets today dusted with herptivite. He was acting spoiled though - he ate half of them hand fed (with really long tweezers) while sitting on my hand. Silly boy! He was just being lazy and I hope he doesn't think that this is going to be a regular thing though!! We went to get calcium without D3 tonight and the pet store we were at had none. I will go to more stores tomorrow when the boys are at school and I have more time.

Hey 12 is something, right? Indeed, the Cal withOUT D3 can be a little tricky to find in store. I didn't have any luck myself and had to order from PetMountain. At least they mark their prices down so with shipping, it wasn't any more than I would have paid in store going by the price on the Rep-Cal with D3.

Tomorrow I will definitely take some photos of Smaug! Perhaps a short video of him eating or bathing! The problem is that I am not sure how to transfer photos/videos from my computer to this site. Any suggestions? If not, I'll ask my ten year old son if he can help.

And there you have it, my 8 year old knows how to use the digital camera better than I do. I do believe there is some advice about this on the "photo expressions" forum.

Good night!
Em

 

[CEHSTJ]

Thanks Em! I just wanted to say Happy Belated Birthday to you as well! April is a good month for a birthday - no more winter with the promise of spring! It is 2:45 am here (in Oshawa - 30 minutes east of Toronto, Ontario, Canada)! I can barely see the keys on the keyboard right now = must go to sleep! Bye! Take care!

Cheryl

 

[msmaui]

Here's the easiest way to post your pictures.

First set up an account at http://www.photobucket.com
Just click the "Register Now" button and follow the instructions.

Then watch this demo:
http://www.globalpunkreview.com/bd/pic_upload.html

 

[Embee]

Thanks Em! I just wanted to say Happy Belated Birthday to you as well! April is a good month for a birthday - no more winter with the promise of spring! It is 2:45 am here (in Oshawa - 30 minutes east of Toronto, Ontario, Canada)! I can barely see the keys on the keyboard right now = must go to sleep! Bye! Take care!

Cheryl

Thanks, and LOL... I didn't go to sleep until nearly 2am. I really have a problem! :roll:

 

[jacqui778]

Hello there!
I'm sorry to hear Smaug isn't doing as well as he should be. I do like the name Smaug-- Lord of the Rings, right? :wink:

Have you tried an appetite stimulant yet? There are some positive experiences with Reptaid, which not only treats a variety of ailments, but can be used to prevent them and increase your dragon's appetite. Here is a link to the thread:

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I think it is worth trying-- I believe that I am going to try some. Reggie has a respitory infection, MBD, and pinworms. So I hear you: Pet stores need to be better informed!

I do hope your dragon starts getting back into the swing of things. I'm sorry about your first one, though. But, perhaps it was meant to happen, so Smaug could come into your loving care and become the big strong boy he's meant to be.

-- Jacqui

 

[CEHSTJ]

Thank you for the information about Reptaid. I will look into getting on Saturday. Today Smaug wouldn't eat at all. He had a white belly all day and was very active. Actually he (or she) did the arm wave at me. First the right arm once and then the left arm seven times. It was in slow motion almost and sooooo cute!

Yes, Smaug is from J.R. Tolkien. Smaug was the dragon that was in the Hobbit. My older son (10) read the entire series of Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit out loud to the family. Books are a big deal in our house. The boys have a natural love of books, which is good. There have been times where I have had to remove he lightbulbs from their room at night just so they can go to sleep instead of reading! Not a bad addiction, but they need rest too!

Do stress marks always appear if they are unhappy? Could Smaug be unhappy and is just hiding that fact? We are taking Smaug to the vets next Wednesday, the soonest appointment we could get due to the holiday. Perhaps he does have some type of parasite that would affect his appetite.

Another question I have is about the arm waving. Do males ever show this behaviour or is it females only? Just wondering. I haven't been able to determine if Smaug is a girl or boy. Cute whatever it is! No pictures today as I thought it might bother him and I was concerned about him lack of eating.

I hope your dragon gets better soon! I appreciate everyone that responds. It opens up more options to keeping our dragons happier and healthier!

Cheryl

 

[Embee]

Hi. I'm so sorry to hear Smaug wouldn't eat for you today.

Do stress marks always appear if they are unhappy? Could Smaug be unhappy and is just hiding that fact? We are taking Smaug to the vets next Wednesday, the soonest appointment we could get due to the holiday. Perhaps he does have some type of parasite that would affect his appetite.

The stress mark thing I find can be attributed to many factors. Our girl gets a little dark/stress lines when something scares her (like one of our cats who likes to paw at her enclosure :roll: ), or when she's grumpy (getting ready to shed). Also, in the am when her temps are still rising, she'll show dark and have some stress lines until her temps stabilize. I find temperature and light seem to have the most to do with dark color/stress lines. I read something very interesting here on the boards recently. To paraphrase: 'often, critters will instinctually "hide" when they're feeling ill, as in the wild, they wouldn't want to appear vulnerable.' This made a lot of sense to me.

I hope the vet can offer something illuminating.

Another question I have is about the arm waving. Do males ever show this behaviour or is it females only? Just wondering. I haven't been able to determine if Smaug is a girl or boy. Cute whatever it is! No pictures today as I thought it might bother him and I was concerned about him lack of eating.

Arm waving is a common behavior in babies and juveniles of both sexes. For adult beardies it's more common in females, a submissive pose if you will. Have you read the sexing article here on the site? Here's a link: http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/sexing/ I found it very helpful actually. Although it's still not quite clear as to our beardie's gender, I'm reasonably certain that she is well, a 'she.' :wink: Everytime she sheds, I check again to see if things are more "clear."

I wondered if Smaug was "Tolkien based." :mrgreen:

Hope your Smaug is feeling up to a meal tomorrow. Please keep us posted on your dear dragon.

The best,
Em