www.dachiu.com question...

[Special T]

I was just letting the OP know my experience while searching for a bearded dragon. My point simply was that disclaimer or not, they do not seem very concerned with the virus. The disclaimer simply protects them, it does not address the problem.

Did you actually read anything on the site besides what the disclaimer that was quoted ? If not I encourage you to do so. The site contains a lot more information on Adeno than that, and their position is fairly well thought out. Whether or not their conclusions agree with yours, they have probably done as much as research as many of their vocal critics. If you're going to characterize it as them being unconcerned or ignoring the issue you should do so having read what they have to say, not just what you've seen second-hand from people who have an axe to grind with them.

They admit that it is likely that their BDs have the virus sice they say almost all colonies do, but why not test and remove the ones that test positive from the breeding program? Or offer to pay for the test if it comes back positive? This is how a reputable breeder should do business whether people blow AV out of porportion or not.

No, it's how a breeder would behave that does not share Dachiu's position on Adeno. Dachiu's willingness to refund dragons that test positive for Adeno in spite of their position is a concession to customers that in my opinion improves their reputation. They put their position out there and are not hiding anything. People who disagree with their position can choose not to purchase from them, or even purchase, test, and get a refund if the test comes back positive.

I think I am going to test my other two dragons and see if it is infact blown out of porportion. If most, if not all colonies have AV then my babies would most definately test positive. My adult tested negative and came from a large breeder on the West Coast.

Just because a dragon tests negative once does not mean it doesn't have Adeno. This is another reason why a large breeder who is already assuming their colony has Adenovirus would not bother to test for it. Removing the dragons that test positive is no guarantee that you are not still breeding positive animals.

 

[Astrael]

In regards to this stuff, who has a sick (showing symptoms, I mean, not just tested positive) beardie from Dachiu? We have encouraged a number of people to go to Dachiu for a bearded dragon, and all of them have been very healthy. Nexus and Loki are healthy, active, good eaters (though Nexus is picky, he eats a lot of what he likes). They certainly seem to be in very good health.

I've personally never tested for Adeno. I would if one got sick and it couldn't be explained through other diseases. But to me, I see adeno in beardies kind of like Epstein Barr in humans. Some people carry it, and never get sick. A lot of people carry it after getting a case of mono and getting better. Some people (such as me) get sick, and don't get better from it. It's still in my system and causing trouble (with a few other viruses). It's a matter of chance, lifestyle, and over all care.

I get better when I take care of myself, eat right, and don't over-do it and don't expose myself unnecessarily to colds/germs/etc. I assume if a beardie becomes symptomatic, they would require extremely controlled care. But, that's a risk with all pets. I've seen enough cats with cancer, AIDS, thyroid problems and such to know you can never tell when a pet or person is going to get sick. You just need to rely on your love and do what's best for them. Having adenovirus shouldn't mean they can't live a normal happy life. And I don't think it's something that we could get rid of easily, even with testing and not breeding positive dragons. It's up to the owners to do what they feel is right.

But, my Dachiu beardies and all the Dachiu beardies I know of in the area are very healthy, well-adjusted pets. So, I believe Dachiu is doing something right since I haven't heard of any health problems in their beardies in my area.

 

[Lunamatron]

If you read my post, I did read the disclaimer on the website. This is simply my opinion and how my experience while shopping for a breeder. I don't feel i should have to repost my opinion here. This is the impression I got when doing research and visiting their website. I am not the only one that feels this way. Google AV and dachiu or search it on this site.

I am not trying to slander or cause an argument. Everyone's opinion and experience is different. As I mentioned before, I understand that it can lie dormant and never cause any problems, but I personally believe that just like a reputable dog breeder screens his or her dogs hips and heart before reproduction, BD breeders should be responsible for testing, especially if they know AV is in their colony.

At least if someone's vet believes their animal is suffering from the symptoms of AV the breeder should agree to pay for the test if it turns out positive.

 

[jeitzen]

You should not have said anything if you have never dealt with them, you are giving them a negative review with no personal basis. Offering to replace an animal tested or refund monies (prior to purchase) is a most reasonable and fair practice. Saying that a reputable breeder would operate differently is trying to categorize them a other than reputable.

My buddy purchased two animals from them about 18 months ago, me and him checked out many sites. We found what he wanted for a great price at http://www.dachiu.com and not a problem with his beardies till this day. So, I know they have great animals and customer service.

 

[Lunamatron]

Hold on... I have every right to say what my personal experience was while doing research. If you found something that swayed your opinion about something I am sure that you would share it with others in order to help them make a decision. You have never had experience with URI, but you won't put a waterfall or up the humidity just to see what happens, would you? No, through research and advice you make the decision that best suits you and your animal.

I think what I am trying to say is, regardless if they put time and money into AV research or actually do care, the initial perception is what many people go by. You may believe that refund for a positive AV test is enough, I simply do not.

 

[dragonlady929]

Rob and Vickie are about the best out there. I have a lot of their stuff and even have a few that 10+ years old. They are always willing to help and I have never called there and didn’t get one of them. They have spent countless hours on the phone with me helping me through issues. They are very knowledgeable about the species and keep amazing track of their lineages. I have been to their facility several times and they work very hard to take care of their animals, everything is spotless and they are constantly working to improve cage designs etc. If you’re in the market for a BD you can’t beat them.

Erin
http://www.eandjdragons.com

 

[ilovebeardeddragons]

well i think any beardie can get "sick" even if its parents are healthy and its parents parents were healthy and so on maybe its just everyonce in a while theres a baby that has a "ssickness"

 

[jeitzen]

Hold on... I have every right to say what my personal experience was while doing research. If you found something that swayed your opinion about something I am sure that you would share it with others in order to help them make a decision. You have never had experience with URI, but you won't put a waterfall or up the humidity just to see what happens, would you? No, through research and advice you make the decision that best suits you and your animal.

I think what I am trying to say is, regardless if they put time and money into AV research or actually do care, the initial perception is what many people go by. You may believe that refund for a positive AV test is enough, I simply do not.

Still don't understand how you can offer an opinion on their practices when you have never dealt with them. Thats what I am trying to say. If someone was saying that my business was not reputable I would not like it, then I would be confused as to how they could say this if they have never done business with me.

 

[Lunamatron]

I never said they were not reputable... I said they did not test for Adenovirus and that I as a pet owner did not want a breeder who accepts that a potentially harmful virus is in their colony, but they choose not to test.

I believe I even said that the OP needed to weigh his options. Dachiu has beautiful dragons, however I will not purchase from them because (even though they support testing in smaller colonies) don't find AV to be a problem. Why support AV testing in smaller colonies if it isn't a problem or if ALL colonies have it? How hard is it to test an animal before breeding to give the purchaser peace of mind? Other than money, I don't see any other issue.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend... I don't mean to be rude, but have you been reading my posts or are you just looking for an argument. I believe the OP question is answered and now this argument is mute.

 

[kwik8]

How hard is it to test an animal before breeding to give the purchaser peace of mind?[/quote]

Just to let you know, you can get false negatives with current testing methods. I do not want to argue on an internet forum, and I will not, but I felt it neccessary to inform those reading this that did not already know.

 

[Lunamatron]

There are false negatives and positives with any viral testing. That is why proper testing practices are necessary.

I am sure very few will take the time to read this entire scientific journal publication, so i have provided you with the link and pasted info pertinent to our discussion.

http://www.reptilerooms.com/index.php?categoryid=17&p142_id=116&p142_dis=3&p142_template=Simple

"Fecal EM Negative Staining is where I have concentrated my work. Feces are placed in a special fixative and sent to a university that has an electron microscope where the virus particles can be detected in the sample. In 100% of affected animals, this test has been positive and 100% of unaffected samples have tested negative. After a number of trials using known virally infected feces, it has been determined that the stool sample must be put in the fixative within 90 minutes of being voided. After that time the test is less accurate. If it is not possible to submit the sample within that time, the sample can be frozen and later thawed and fixed. Known positive samples that have been frozen for up to 46 days have bad 100% positive results. The importance of this work is that this test can be run ante mortem and without the risk of anesthesia or surgery and is much less costly."

So... false negatives or positives are simply due to improper testing practices by not placing the sample in fixative within 90 minutes, not the actual EM screening.

 

[Special T]

So... false negatives or positives are simply due to improper testing practices by not placing the sample in fixative within 90 minutes, not the actual EM screening.

I do not believe this is correct. Dragons with Adenovirus do not always produce infected feces. Even if proper testing practices identifiy the disease 100% of the time in infected feces, a test cannot produce a positive result if the fecal sample used is not infected yet the dragon is. This is why you cannot diagnose or rule out Adenovirus by testing only once.

 

[jeitzen]

I never said they were not reputable... I said they did not test for Adenovirus and that I as a pet owner did not want a breeder who accepts that a potentially harmful virus is in their colony, but they choose not to test.

I believe I even said that the OP needed to weigh his options. Dachiu has beautiful dragons, however I will not purchase from them because (even though they support testing in smaller colonies) don't find AV to be a problem. Why support AV testing in smaller colonies if it isn't a problem or if ALL colonies have it? How hard is it to test an animal before breeding to give the purchaser peace of mind? Other than money, I don't see any other issue.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend... I don't mean to be rude, but have you been reading my posts or are you just looking for an argument. I believe the OP question is answered and now this argument is mute.

I am not looking for an argument. I am just stating my own opinion, just like you. Oh, and you said in two post that a reputable breeder would do other wise. Isn't this putting them in a category as not reputable then?

 

[Lunamatron]

They may produce beautiful babies and have enthusiasm for their work, however I still don't understand why it is such a big deal to test before each breeding cycle to show their commitment to the longevity of the species. Why do they find it necessary to financially support testing in smaller colonies if they do not believe it to be a problem? It makes no sense.

Scientists are just now starting to see the effects of the virus in herp communities because it is a relatively new virus effecting herps.

And with EM testing there are not false positives... They either see the virus or they do not. So even if people argue that there are false negatives, they have to understand that there are false negatives with MANY viral tests (including parvo, Felv/FIV, FIP and HIV), but that doesn't mean testing shouldn't be done... it simply means that more research needs to be done to improve accuracy.

I simply believe that breeders would be financially burdened by regular testing and that is why so many big breeders disagree with the scientific community.

 

[Special T]

They may produce beautiful babies and have enthusiasm for their work, however I still don't understand why it is such a big deal to test before each breeding cycle to show their commitment to the longevity of the species. Why do they find it necessary to financially support testing in smaller colonies if they do not believe it to be a problem? It makes no sense.

They have not said they don't think Adeno is a problem. That is a strawman. It is a matter of degrees -- what the effects really are and whether Adeno is a significant threat to the "longevity of the species." Supporting testing in smaller colonies is a way to establish whether it is actually is possible to maintain an Adeno-free colony -- which could potentially inform future decisions about larger colonies. This is consistent with their position on Adenovirus. Obviously, it is not a positive for a colony to have Adeno. It is merely a question of how negative it is. But it is of no benefit to them to make sweeping changes to a large, established colony if a completely Adeno-free colony turns out to be a pipe dream.

And with EM testing there are not false positives... They either see the virus or they do not.

You are right, I mistyped. I meant that Adeno could not be ruled out with a single test, not that it couldn't be diagnosed with a single test. A positive result (assuming testing is done correctly) means a dragon has Adeno. A negative result does not necessarily mean the opposite. Even if a large breeder were to remove positive-testing breeders on a regular basis, the first time someone bought a dragon from them that tested positive there would be an outcry. The same people that campaigned for Adeno testing would now be attacking the breeder for advertising Adeno-free dragons and selling positive ones. In fact, if a breeder was removing positive-testing dragons from the breeding pool, it would probably be in their best interest not to publicize that fact, because it is bound to be misinterpreted as a promise of an Adeno-free colony.

Unless and until it is known that a large, Adeno-free colony is possible and feasible, large breeders really have no reason to undertake the task. (Appeasing a vocal minority of critics is not a reason from their point of view, because it is unlikely that the critics will be satisfied anyway.) Financially supporting research on a smaller scale, however, is a perfectly sensible thing for a large breeder to do.