why not beardies? Other hobbies/pets do it....

[jarett_harrison]

very well said everyone. Sean, we are not trying to offend you or say you are wrong in anyway. we all have our own opinons on the subject and if you can consciously kill an animal just because it has a missing leg or isnt the colour you wanted, then thats you. Alot of people here though could not do that. We have all seen how these amazing animals adapt to a disability like, Zak&Wheezie, Little Guy (LG) and many other leg amputees and foot amputees. It was a good question though and I hope we answered your question. Barbara, I agree with you that both baby humans and baby animals are the same. Its not their fault they are here. Its ours. And If we are going to just put down an animal because its deaf or blind, why isnt this done for humans? This post may sound absolutly absurd but its just my personal opinion.

 

[fresnowitte]

Sean I'm not taking offense dear. I'm okay with my believes an I'm okay that others have different beliefs as well including you. If everything and everyone in the world were the same it would be a boring place to live. Wouldn't it?

Jarett that's what we were asked our personal opinions...something we all have and can not be taken from us or changed unless we are not happy with them.

I actually enjoyed this conversation.

 

[crazyseany]

I don't think I was insuted by your post Barbara.... I was referring to Dragonsinkansas.

I wonder of all the breeders on here the percentage of them that do....?

 

[fresnowitte]

Sean I'd imagine that this would depend on if one breeds out of love of the animal and wanting to produce the healthiest babies they could to make someone else happy to have such an awesome baby...or if you do as a source of bread and butter.

Just as our opinions differ so do our morals. :roll:

But a very good question!

 

[sara24354]

Personally I couldn't do it. I am not bashing anyone,but feel that life is precious,if there is a SEVERE problem ok but just because it's not the right color? I happen to have fallen in love with colorful beardies(orange and red colors are very strong) when I got my 2 dragons,but the first beardie I ever saw was a plain tan/gray color. To me he will always be beautiful because of his personality and he was how I was introduced to beardies. If you don't want a beardie from a clutch because it is not a bright orange,red,yellow or whatever color,sell it or give it away,don't kill it but that is just me. For example: I had 2 pairs of cockatiels at one time,they bred,but for whatever reason the eggs never hatched. I cried for days because I had to toss the eggs,for me culling would not be a possibility.

 

[lacy_black]

Ok i'm odd, I freely admit it but... I prefer animals over humans. To me human babies are too ugly to get that worked up about. But if they can survive and thrive with a birth defect then I see no reason why human and animal newborns shouldn't be allowed to live. Now if they can't live a decent life and are in pain then yea I suppose it would be kinder to let them go, but not push them because you feel like it, human and animal alike.

Of course I feel it's doctors faults the worlds getting so crowded, if nature was allowed to make the choice instead of medications and machines the natural order would be more balanced.

 

[Freeie]

I think i got lucky a breeder seen my post were i was wanting rescue/special babys for my first beardie. I wasnt a noobie to beardies tho i took care of my daughters beardie for a while before choosing to get one for myself i ended up with sisters who both hatched with issues. I wont be breeding them.

I wonder how many babys are born with defects out of 1 breeding(for all eggs layed 1st 2nd 3rd clutchs) Is it common or rare?

I understand why some cull but i think culling for not having the right colors, spots, stripes and so on and so on is nuts. How many who do get special animals take the time to try and place them in a good home? Does it take to much time? Is it not worth it to do so? This post has me wondering.

 

[vickson420]

Well you know I dont really think its difficult to find homes for these guys at all, just take a look at how quickly these guys get grabbed up when they are put up in the For Free forum.Being an owner of a "special needs" dragon I can tell you that it is an entirely different experience with a special needs animal as opposed to a healthy one.I thought Apophis would be dead within days turns out he is my most active,affectionate,veracious eater out of all my beardies.Truth be told I am starting to believe he will outlive the rest because of his amazing ability to not only survive but too thrive so to me culling is just making it easier for the breeder not for the animal.The other question at hand which everyone is kind of dancing around is even if you agreed that culling is ok(which I dont)then how exactly would you go about that process in a humane manner?FYI freezing a beardie which is the most common method is NOT humane and is terrifyingly painful for the animal,then there is the at home gassing method which is also awful and almost always not done correctly so the animal lingers and suffers a drawn out death.Really the only humane way is vet assisted euthanasia and guess what I dont know a breeder in the world that is going to pull money out of his/her pocket to do that over and over again which is why I stand on my original statement.If it isnt an absolute neccessity to end the animals pain then it shouldnt be considered.Its the price you pay when you decide to breed you make money off the backs of the animals so the responsibility is yours to ensure that all of the offspring are tended too properly even if that means you do not make money from said offspring.Of course all of this could be avoided if people would just stop inbreeding for all the fancy crap and get back to breeding healthy stock first and taking color and pattern as a secondary result.Dont get me wrong I like the morphs but I dont like the rapid method that is sometimes used to create them.

 

[fresnowitte]

If it isnt an absolute neccessity to end the animals pain then it shouldnt be considered.Its the price you pay when you decide to breed you make money off the backs of the animals so the responsibility is yours to ensure that all of the offspring are tended too properly even if that means you do not make money from said offspring.Of course all of this could be avoided if people would just stop inbreeding for all the fancy crap and get back to breeding healthy stock first and taking color and pattern as a secondary result

Amen sista! :wink: :headbang:

 

[jarett_harrison]

freezing ANY animal without being anesthetized is very painful. The animal is still alive when ice crystals begin to form in the skin. All the water in the cells crytalizes and i would imagine it being like pricked with needles billions of times. If you are going to euthinize, a vet can sedate an animal cheaply and then freeze them. I personally have used a CO2 gas chamber to euthinize my rats for freezing. They just went to sleep and just slipped away. If your going to use a gas chamber, make sure you know what your doing.

 

[MrsHutch]

If it isnt an absolute neccessity to end the animals pain then it shouldnt be considered.Its the price you pay when you decide to breed you make money off the backs of the animals so the responsibility is yours to ensure that all of the offspring are tended too properly even if that means you do not make money from said offspring.

I absolutely agree - well said!

Really the only humane way is vet assisted euthanasia and guess what I dont know a breeder in the world that is going to pull money out of his/her pocket to do that over and over again

Yes, you are right there. Unfortunately there are far too many breeders ( of any species) that do it for the money; for them it's a business and the bottom line for them is profit - As you said, for them vet assisted euthanasia is not an expense they would be prepared to sacrifice their profit margins for, no matter how little it may cost in reality. Any method that causes pain is just barbaric IMO

 

[spyder79]

Depending on your specific thoughts on the deffinition of culling i techniquely do practice this. I only keep a select number of eggs from a clutch and only keep eggs from the first 2 clutches. All eggs outside of this number are frozen and thrown out.

 

[MissT]

Well this is quite the interesting conversation!!!

I'm struggling at the moment tho...

Currently, I have an 11month old female with a respiratory infection, being treated with baytril and we are about 90% certain she is gravid Due to the rather high risk of deformities etc with the clutch, we will have to freeze them. Note - she was housed with a male before we got her so I did not intend to breed anyway! But I feel terrible that i'm going to have to do this... I personally agree with the majority here that, unless the animal is suffering and unable to live out a good and comfortable life then culling really isn't acceptable to me.....but does that in a sense make me a hypocrite??

Oh well, back to the discussion - I'm rather enjoying keeping an eye on it!

T

 

[crazyseany]

I don't think hypocrite in this case. I think responsible beardie owner.

I think part of the difference in opinions could be how/where you were raised...
I could add my perspective but... I'll just ....

 

[Gail]

MissT, I don't think you are a hypocrite. I've seen first hand what baytril can do to a clutch, their physical deformities aren't always very bad but nearly the whole clutch died within just a few weeks.

I don't think anyone here suggested culling beardies for color or markings, sean was just using that as an example with fish breeders. I've bred livebearing fish in small quantities before and culling is just part of the process. Try to find homes for 200 deformed or unattractive guppies, its not easy and depending where you live, possibly impossible.

Its nice to think that all disabled beardies are easy to rehome, it might seem like it since so many members here are willing to help but its just not the case.

As far as how the culling is done, best way of course it to have a vet do it but if thats not an option then decapitation is the considered the most humane.