Truly Reaching Out For Help...

[kaykay87]

It's learning to gently wrestle them into a position to feed them against
their will. It's learning how to stick a syringe into the side of a dragons mouth and not cause injury, but nobody's
there to show you how. It's spending time hugging and cuddling so they can forgive and forget the force feedings
and not associate you with that. It's keeping them hydrated, keeping them clean, checking every poop. It's thinking
about them every time you leave the house. It's a sigh of relief and a flash of joy when you come back home
and your dragon is still breathing. It's vet visits and blood tests and x rays and tests. It's days and days and months
and months of wondering if they can get better. It's sad because he's so sick and you love him.

IM BALLING MY EYES OUT :'(

such true words, and i DO feel like my little guy zuko hates me for force feeding him so i sit and snuggle with him for hours on end to try and make him know im not out to hurt him,,, wow the tears wont stop, u really touched my heart with that thread an i HAVE NO CHOCOLATE OR WINE lol

 

[dragonlover3]

It's learning to gently wrestle them into a position to feed them against
their will. It's learning how to stick a syringe into the side of a dragons mouth and not cause injury, but nobody's
there to show you how. It's spending time hugging and cuddling so they can forgive and forget the force feedings
and not associate you with that. It's keeping them hydrated, keeping them clean, checking every poop. It's thinking
about them every time you leave the house. It's a sigh of relief and a flash of joy when you come back home
and your dragon is still breathing. It's vet visits and blood tests and x rays and tests. It's days and days and months
and months of wondering if they can get better. It's sad because he's so sick and you love him.

IM BALLING MY EYES OUT :'(

such true words, and i DO feel like my little guy zuko hates me for force feeding him so i sit and snuggle with him for hours on end to try and make him know im not out to hurt him,,, wow the tears wont stop, u really touched my heart with that thread an i HAVE NO CHOCOLATE OR WINE lol

Taking care of very sick Beardies is so "intense and hands-on" since they need so very much support care to even survive while sick. It takes unbelievable determination and perseverance and consistency.
It is uncharted territory you have to manage to find a way thru to help them. Thank God for the experience available and freely given by members here on this forum and for the Exoctics vets out there who actually have a clue!
Only those of us who have experienced the intensive care and emotional journey involved in caring for very sick or neglected Beardies can really know what we go thru. And for everyone else you truly hope and pray they don't have to learn and make the same journey!
For those of us who are doing it right now as nordica and you are, it's important to know someone really has been there and understands!

nordica,
I'm thinking of you and Leo and hoping for the best! Good thoughts and prayers to you both! :love5:
Amanda

 

[mistygirl]

Your poor little darling Leo. I know your vet is so caring & very competent. I'm sorry if my post sounded otherwise, it is not how I meant to sound. I can tell by all the tests they are truly, truly trying to find out what is wrong. I was just wondering if there are other places they deal with when they are stumped. I am continuing to pray for you and Leo. It is just so hard not knowing. Being a vet is one of the hardest jobs ever because your patients can't tell you their symptoms.

 

[nordica]

@Menolly07 - Thanks for the Copy/Paste, I'll be sure to bring it up to my Vet when he calls me back with the recently asked for estimate. Do you happen to know how one would test for that, and what the treatment is?

@Kalyn876 - That's right, I remember that now. I'll be contacting Tracie shortly to set that up; even my Vet had said that the testing for Adenovirus is expensive, and requires a cloacal swab, which I would prefer to save Leo from if I can... the poor guy has been through so much already.

@dragonlover3 - Once again, you have an amazing way to put into words exactly what I'm feeling. Thank you so much for your kind sharing, and true understanding.

@mistygirl - No no no, your post didn't come across wrong at all. I know that my Vets are trying, but I'm sure that even they can get to a point where they simply become too stumped for too long, and will begin to feel like there's nothing more to be done other than let their "patients" go. And you're right, it IS very hard not knowing. My Fiance was tentatively asking me last night about how much more I was planning on doing for Leo. He had said that he sees how terrible Leo looks, and that he feels bad about everything he's had to be put through, so he was just... wondering. I pretty much told him that as long as there is another test to run, or another potential diagnosis to pursue, and as long as I can keep affording them... that I would continue to fight. My Fiance has actually lately been a little more sensitive to my emotional instability in the matter, and while he still really won't "help" per say, I appreciate the shift.

_______


So Leo seems the same today as how he's been lately; lethargic, fighting his food, froth at his mouth, pooping multiple times a day again, and still regurgitating/swallowing things. I hate to see it, and hate even more to even think about it, but it seems as though Leo is starting to give up. I don't know, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm just projecting my own fears and frustrations onto him, and reading too much into his latest downward turn. In his morning bath this today, I attempted to get a bit of slurry into him, to no avail. I WAS able to get 20 waxworms and 6 small dubia nymphs into him afterward, but it took a very long time. He didn't exactly fight me, he just... didn't try. I would gently pry open his mouth so I could place something onto his tongue, and he would just... lay there... not chewing, not swallowing... just lay there with this bug half-hanging out of his mouth, looking utterly forlorn.

I have to leave in about 30 minutes, to go on one of my two-day red-eye trips. I hope that he'll be fine while I'm gone...

 

[Menolly07]

Nordica,

The testing for microsporidian spores is identical to the testing for cryptosporidium oocysts. It can be done with the same fecal smear. If the vet wants to retest for that anyway then they can kill two birds with one stone and look for both. Here's a link to an article I found.

As to rendering the spores inactive, I couldn't find anything that I could really piece together an understanding of. I'm a layperson with a passing understanding of basic biology and chemistry. I have enough to understand the what. However, anything more complicated is simply lost on me. I can understand measurements and descriptions, but anything close to potential treatments seem to use a more complex descriptive scientific language I simply don't have the right level of understanding for.

I did do some Google searches using the keyed terms "microsporidian spores" and "reptiles" or "bearded dragon" specifically along with "treatment" or "inactive" because "inactive" seems to be scientist speak for "kill the little bastards with fire." Basically, the spores are there but dead, thus the life cycle is interrupted which seems to be key with these monocelled parasites. If the spore dies it can't continue its process of take over of host cells.

 

[nordica]

Well, Leo is holding steady in his recent downward turn.

Even with my hand-feeding him, he still won't eat much, and has lost weight again. I'm still seeing froth at his lips, and a lot of the time it's a black color, I'm assuming because of the buggies. He's still showing the regurgitating/swallowing symptom, and is still very lethargic. He's continuing to poop multiple times a day, so I can only guess that he's once again unable to absorb anything I'm getting into him.

The past two days have been in the mid-70s here, so I've taken him outside for some natural sunlight both days. He always loved being outside, and used to roam around constantly, exploring everything, but he's just so weak now. On Saturday, I placed him on the warmed retaining wall stones that we have in our back yard, and for the most part, he had just laid there, dragging himself a few inches every couple of minutes. Yesterday, my best friend came over to do the tune-up on my truck, and as it was even warmer than it was the day before, I brought Leo out with me for a good long while while I chatted with my friend. Leo stayed on my shoulder much of the time, occasionally shifting his position. Ever so often, I'd place him down on the lawn, where he had actually roamed a bit. He's lost so much mass though, and is so weak, that he'd only be able to crawl about a foot before having to rest. His walk is different as well... he used to hold himself high off of the ground, with his tail arched up and over his back, but now... now he just drags himself along more often than not, and seems to have trouble getting his front legs under him. His tail now just drags on the ground behind him. I know for a fact that THIS particular problem isn't MBD at all, as his X-Rays looks great, as well as his calcium level. He's just so... weak.

He has another Vet appointment this morning, this time with Dr. Joseph, as my usual Dr. Forney is out of the office this week. I'm actually glad that it's with her, as it's been a while since she's treated Leo for anything, and even though her and Dr. Forney routinely bounce things off of each other (as they're been doing with Leo), I'd like for her to actually have Leo physically under her hands. Perhaps she can give me an idea of what she thinks all this is. When I spoke with Dr. Forney last week, we discussed our next move. He said that he wanted to test for Tuberculosis as well as the Adenovirus. When I had brought up testing for Aspergillosis, he told me that he had discussed it with Dr. Joseph, and that because it was so hard to test for (I was told that you have to take a sample from deep in their gut, and so one might not be able to rely on the results because of the nature in which the sample must be attained) he doesn't recommend it. He did, however, say that we can go ahead and treat Leo as if he did have the Aspergillosis, with the recommended Itraconazole. The temporary problem I have run into with this though, is my schedule. Apparently, the med needs to be given every day for 10 days, then 3 weeks off, and then if no improvement is seen, another 10 day round is called for... unfortunately, I *needed* to pick up some hours at work, and I pretty much have back-to-back trips for two weeks solid, starting next Monday. Afterwards though, my schedule is pretty open, and then I begin vacation, so I won't be able to start Leo on the meds until that time. Dr. Forney and I also discussed doing the barium swallow X-Rays again, but that too will have to wait until the last week of this month.

I just hope that he can hold out that long.

I have the sinking feeling that we're running out of options. I mean, there's really only so much you can test for. I get that. And I get that sometimes when a beardie becomes too sick for too long, they can never be brought back. We've just been over so much already, the Vets are stumped, and Leo's still so ill, and getting worse again. It's been such a drain on my finances (not to mention my emotional reserves), thus my need to pick up hours at work. I'll keep fighting for him as long as I can, I just wish that we KNEW what was wrong with him. It hurts me to keep putting him through things. Every time I have to pry open his mouth just to get a few wax worms into him, it hurts. Every Vet appointment, every new medication, every poke and prod... it just hurts me to know that he's suffering through all of it.

Hopefully Dr. Joseph can tell me something new today.

 

[athenacp]

Keeping both of you in my thoughts and prayers

 

[dragonlover3]

HUGS
Amanda

 

[ShannyBeard]

I feel so bad for you both.

 

[Kalyn876]

I just pray and hope something comes up in this new round of tests, sounds like you are both very tired. Whenever I feel exhausted whether emotionally or physically I like to take a Viatamin B supplement. I find it helps to bring me into a more relaxed disposition. Just throwing this out there.

 

[Menolly07]

Oh sweetheart, I feel so awfully for you, for Leo. For both of you. He is obviously so tired and weak, but he is still there. He's still fighting, on some level. I truly feel that animals, humans included, have the complete capacity to give up at some point. I think that we can know when we just can't anymore. Whether it's fight or walk that extra step. Maybe there is something he's holding for. Maybe he just knows there's a test. Maybe he feels like he has a corner. Maybe he just doesn't, god forbid, feel it's quite time YET. Not a one of us can even begin to know. And I'm not saying from the "only god knows camp." I'm just saying that maybe Leo feels something and is still trying. All that you can do is be there with him. If that means, eventually, letting all the scientific measures go and letting his body fight on it's own then that IS a choice and a real and acceptable one. It isn't a bad one. It isn't a wrong one. It doesn't make you a bad mum. Sometimes we reach a point where we simply cannot intervene anymore. There aren't anymore tests to run or medicines to try. The body has to fight on its own to whatever end results. It sucks, but it's a decision that not a single person here will even for a moment think you'll have arrived at lightly or with anything short of a million sleepless nights and oceans of tears.

You've devoted everything that you can to Leo, and not to sound trite, more! The adage of the cure being worse then the disease is definitely a cliche based in fact. Even if (god forbid!) the worst comes, I only hope that you WILL know that you truly have done so much more then I think 3/4 of most pet parents would have done. I know you've probably questioned everything with, "Should I have?" or, "Did this?" or, "Was this the right thing?" or, "Was this the test at the time?" but you have done everything, turned over every stone, some TWICE. You have worked twice as hard to get your kid better, sat beside him, mopped his brow and held his hand while he didn't feel well. Sometimes when we become so steeped in how unwell a person or pet has become we don't completely acknowledge the gravity of what we HAVE done for them. We end up feeling like failures because we obviously haven't done enough. You see, if we had done enough they would have bounced back, right? If we just did the exactly right thing, at the exactly right time then they will be WELL. We messed up the magic somehow. And it's. All. Our. Fault. But that isn't the way it works. Sometimes we have to remember that or be reminded that just doing it is all we can do and that there's no magic formula. Part of the fight is Leo's, and he still seems like he's in there, so hold on to that. As tired as he is he's still moving that next foot after he rests!!

 

[dangit12]

just thinking about it makes me sad dont have much to say but i hope hes ok.

 

[mistygirl]

Sending thoughts and prayers to you and Leo. I hope you get the answers you need. You have gone way, way beyond doing everything you can. Hugs to you and your dear Leo.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Megan,

I am so sorry that poor Leo has gone back & forth like this. It is an emotional roller coaster for all involved.
When was the last blood test taken, did you post it or send it to me?
Which bacteria were ruled out, cryptosporidium? Was mycobacterium mentioned?
Here is the site where I work in conjunction with. They do other tests as well, not just Adeno. Maybe have the vets call to speak with them about the Aspergillus & Cryptosporidium possibilities. I am not sure of the cost of the others tests but should be comparable to the $18 for the Adeno test.
Something is definitely out of balance with him, but not sure what. Can they test his Ph possibly to see if he is acidic? I have wondered if something toxic has built up in his system somehow but the liver does not show any toxicity? The white counts that are high are indicative of some type of infection going on or something to that level.
They have ruled out cancer?
It could very well be respiratory related with having a bacteria present in the lungs but is not detectable through conventional methods. Does he exhibit breathing issues or other respiratory related problems?
They did a mouth culture, correct? The itraconazole would be an option but it is hard on the system. He could probably tolerate that though, if you wanted to go ahead & treat him.
Is he black bearding right now?

I will be thinking about you & Leo. You have done absolutely everything that you can right now. Hopefully something can be figured out soon because I know he has been ill for awhile now.

Tracie

 

[nordica]

@Kalyn876 - I fully believe in the power of supplements... unfortunately Vit B has the opposite effect on me; I tend to get really pumped up and wanna enter a demolition derby. :wink: And actually, I already take a daily supplement, consisting of high levels of Vitamin C, Vitamins B6 and B12, and green tea extract, amongst other healthy goodness.

@Menolly07 - Thank you so much for your kind and empathetic words; that's exactly how I'm feeling. In addition to feeling like I'M failing Leo, I feel like my VETS are failing him as well. I just don't get it. After all the money that I've thrown at them (setting aside for the moment just how much they *haven't* charged me), after all of the tests, after all of the medications... why the *bleep* haven't they found out what's wrong?? I've gotten nothing but encouragement from everyone here, telling me that I've been doing an outstanding job, but everyone is their own worst critic... and I still feel like I could have been, and could be, doing more.

@Tracie - We ran a CBC panel on Feb 25th; the WBC count was still elevated and 24% of the cells found were "unusual". I'll have to get the actual results and post them here. We've tested for Crypto twice, using two different technologies, and both times the results were negative. Mycobacterium were not mentioned, however he'll be tested soon (see Leo's update further down). I can ask about testing his PH level. Every time I think they have ruled out Cancer, they keep bringing it back up, because of his chronic wasting illness. I've always wondered if this whole thing is respiratory-related, or if it began that way, as in the beginning he was having such hard forced exhalations, and wet coughing. A culture was ran from swabs taken from his mouth and cloaca, mixing the two samples together to save a bit of money, and I was TOLD that with the exception of the small amount of psuedomonas grown, everything was the normal bacteria found. We're going to go ahead and treat with Itraconazole this week (see Leo's update further down). As far as him black-bearding, he does so on occasion, more often lately, though it's never full-on black, and only on very rare occasion will he ever get stress marks on his belly. Oh, and Amanda is the name of one of the members following my thread, not mine. :laughing6:

_______


Alright, I'm of the opinion that Leo's Vet visit went... well... today. Truthfully, I've always had a preference for Dr. Joseph (who saw Leo today), but when Dr. Forney began treating Leo so regularly, I just decided to stay with him, to keep things consistent for Leo. Anyway, one of the things I prefer about Dr. Joseph is that she doesn't sugar-coat things, and doesn't try to give any false hope. When I took Leo out of his toasty carrier so she could examine him, the first thing she said after "Oh, poor thing," was that he looked terrible. She said that he really did look to be in bad shape, and was extremely thin. It *almost* made me feel... better?... that someone else sees the severity of the situation as I do. Leo was his usual good boy during his examination, waiting patiently for her to be done, however once she finished, he did something that he's never done before... I was standing by the examination table, with my hands resting on the edge, and once the Vet took her hands off of Leo, he stood up on all fours, walked straight over to me, and buried his head under my hand. It just about broke my heart.

Dr. Joseph and I went over his chart, as well as my notes, and we discussed everything that's been done so far, as well as what hasn't. After a lot of back-and-forth, and coming to the same page and same conclusions, we have a new plan of action, and it's probably going to be the hardest thing I've had to do thus far...

We're going to be doing the barium swallow for the X-Rays, to check out his GI tract. We're going to be running a Mycobacterium test, specifically for Tuberculosis. He's going to be put on Itraconazole as well as Amoxicillin, and will be routinely given a palm oil supplement to boost his immune system. And because all of this needs to be given EVERY SINGLE DAY, without fail, starting immediately... (and here's where it gets devastating for me)... I'll be dropping him off at the Vets tomorrow, to be boarded for 18 straight days. I had explained to Dr. Joseph that my schedule begins to get tricky next week, and that I'll be working practically for two weeks straight, but that I'll have just about two weeks off starting at the end of the month. She had replied that Leo couldn't wait that long, which is why I agreed to let them board him. My anxiety level had risen (as well as the tears) at the thought of letting him out of my sight and care for so long, but I really do feel like it's my only option, as I have no one to help me, and I HAVE to work these trips. The cost of everything (even after the 20% discount she gave me) will completely wipe out my account, and the money I had set aside to get my truck fixed as well as for the build of everyone's new custom enclosures. I asked them if it would be alright if I called every day, to check in on him, and was given a smile and an assurance that it would be fine. I also plan on stopping by on the few days off I have during this time, just to spend a little bit of time with him.

After I got Leo back home and tried to feed him (I was able to get 20 waxworms into him, but he flat-out refused to swallow any dubia roach nymphs), I went to the local PetCo specifically to pick up a couple boxes of Repta-Boost (I was told that I could drop Leo off with any favorite foods, toys, snuggly things, hides, etc) to give to the Vet for use during his boarding. Granted, they DO have the Carnivore Care on-hand, but it would be more expensive for me to have them feed that. Besides, Leo takes very well to the Repta-Boost. I have also ordered some more waxworms and butterworms, which should show up within the next few days, that I plan on dropping off as well. Truth be told, I plan on putting together quite the little care package for Leo...

I was sent home with the small amount of paperwork required for boarding, in which I was encouraged to list his routines and habits, tricks I use, foods and supplements, current meds, and anything else I deem important. As I was checking out, I laughingly warned the staff that they would soon be sick of me and my OCD stubborn Aries ways, as I'm sure I'll be dropping Leo off with a BOOK of instructions, not to mention just how often I fear I'll be calling.

I have to leave on one of my two-day red-eye trips tomorrow evening, so I'll only have a few hours to spend with Leo before having to drop him off at the Vet. I feel my mind shying away from the prospect, as every time I think about it, I begin to tear up... I'm sure I'll be a wreck tomorrow.