Truly Reaching Out For Help...

[mistygirl]

I am so glad that Leo is doing better. He looks really good and not sad and droopy. And that picture of him lifting his bottom is so funny, but it is true they are very clean and do not like to be dirty. My baby girl uses her water mostly to dip her front legs in and soaks them right after she eats. You are remarkable and your devotion is such a wonderful and inspiring thing. With such a hectic, crazy, stressful schedule you have managed to bring Leo all the way back with your care and love. Your other babies are gorgeous too. I hope he will soon be eating on his own, but that requires patience as well. You can't tough-love him yet, he is still on the road back to recovery. Sounds like he is mostly off the slurries which is a first step.

 

[nordica]

Sorry it has been a few days since my last update on Leo, but I was away for work for Thursday and Friday, and then yesterday I decided to be a lazy blob on the couch for much of the day. :mrgreen:

Anyway, yesterday was Leo's latest Vet appointment. I didn't feed him beforehand, as I didn't know what kind of tests we might be running. He had his morning poo that day, and then another smaller one a couple of hours later, and then ANOTHER itty bitty one on the way to the Vet's office (I think the truck rides anymore bounce him around too much; I have really stiff shocks). He did fine at his appointment, but the Vet says that he's still too incredibly thin; during the check-up, he said that Leo has pretty much burned through all of his fat reserves. Since Leo still won't eat on his own, I'm to continue hand-feeding him and do everything that I am already doing, and hope that he starts truly gaining weight again. We discussed everything that we've done so far, and all of the results from prior testing, and so agreed to run another CBC panel to find out where Leo's WBC count is, and to also run another gram stain on the fecal sample that I brought in so we could check if the previously seen yeasts were gone. I asked the Vet if while he had Leo in the back, he could administer some saline, as I'm always worried of him becoming dehydrated. He said it wouldn't hurt, and that he would also give him a nice little vitamin shot.

Leo looked perfectly fine when he was brought back to me, albeit a little tired.

I should get the results from everything around Tuesday or Wednesday, at which point we'll go from there. We had also discussed taking focused x-rays and an ultrasound on his GI tract, to see if there is some kind of physical abnormality (because of his continued hitching/swallowing symptoms). We'll most likely be running those in another week or so.

On the truck ride home, Leo tried to climb out of his carrier, so I brought him out onto my shoulder, as that really is his preferred method of travel. He always does better that way; I think he likes being elevated, and being able to look out of the window. When I got him home, I let him warm up a bit under his lights, and then brought him out to eat. I didn't bother with trying for any dubias, as he seemed a little deflated after the Vet visit, so I treated him to nothing but waxworms and small hornworms (of which he ate 30 and 3, respectively). He had yet ANOTHER poo again in his tank in the evening, so I scrubbed him off, and then loved on him for a good long while.

Today saw the same pattern... his larger morning poo, and then another tiny one a couple of hours later. I brought him out to feed, where I was able to get nine small/medium dubia nymphs and 25 waxworms into him, without *too* much fuss. He's started fighting me more on the dubia nymphs though, so I've taken to using a smaller selection, about the size of a thumbnail, as they're easier to feed off.

His return to multiple poops throughout the day has me worried. His energy level seems more subdued as well, and he's begun to drop a tiny bit of the weight he gained back. I had gotten him to where he was only pooping once in the morning, a nice large one, and was up to 615 grams. Now, even his first morning poo is on the smaller size, and he's down to 605 grams. All of this combined with the continued hitching/regurgitation/swallowing thing that he does... gah, it just has me worried again. I understand that once a beardie becomes truly sick, it can take a VERY long time to bring them back, but it just seems like it's ALREADY been a very long time. Every now and then, I go back through all of my daily notes on him, just to remind myself that he's LOADS better then where he was only a month ago...

 

[PonchoandDaddy]

You are doing such an amazing job. I'm glad he is eating and that his vet visit was uneventful. Leo is so strong and I just know he's going to be just fine. You know how when we get really sick with the flu and even after we feel better we still have those off days that make you think you're trying to get sick again...I think that's what's going on with the little man. Every once in a while Poncho has days where he goes poop 2 or 3 times a day. I know that isn't at all comforting but just so you know, it happens to someone else too. It may be that since he's not eating a great deal of veggies he is going more often from the protein. I did a high protein diet before and I had to go more often than when I eat more veggies than anything.

Also, if you need anything please let me know. You can PM me. I just wanna help you and little Leo out anyway I can. You've done so good with him and if I can help take even a half second of stress off of you poncho and I would like to.

 

[dragonlover3]

Hi,
I've followed your thread and Leo for a long while now. You are so dedicated to your little guy. It's just wonderful.
I just read your last post and can feel your sadness, inpatients, frustration, and exhaustion, too! It takes reptiles
what seems like forever to recover. They heal SO slowly, and sometimes it seems like they take a step forward
then 2 steps back or because their immune system is stressed something else becomes an issue. Like dominoes,
it's sometimes one thing after another adding to the illness.
It's maximum stress! It's tons of reading and learning and advice sought because there aren't any "How to Nurse
Your Sick Beardie Back to Health" books out there. It's wondering if you are doing right, wondering if you should
do something different, wondering why it doesn't seem to be working since you can't see the progress. It's learning
about what to prepare to feed them and what supplements will be best. It's mixing and preparing the food and
supplements 'cause there aren't any Beardie convenience stores carrying a variety of slurry with your choice of
bugs, with and with out calcium and vits. It's learning to gently wrestle them into a position to feed them against
their will. It's learning how to stick a syringe into the side of a dragons mouth and not cause injury, but nobody's
there to show you how. It's spending time hugging and cuddling so they can forgive and forget the force feedings
and not associate you with that. It's keeping them hydrated, keeping them clean, checking every poop. It's thinking
about them every time you leave the house. It's a sigh of relief and a flash of joy when you come back home
and your dragon is still breathing. It's vet visits and blood tests and x rays and tests. It's days and days and months
and months of wondering if they can get better. It's sad because he's so sick and you love him. Impatient because
he doesn't heal faster and that you can't see progress without checking the records you keep. You're frustrated
because for all of your learning, caring, loving him and all that devoted time and hard work it hasn't healed him
yet. It's an exhausting emotional journey you take alone because on top of it all you just plain love the little guy
and want him get better. I know...I've been there!
Please know I think you are amazing and I know what it takes to care for very sick beardies. If I can
help in way let me know. You can PM me if you want.
I'm thinking of you and Leo and wishing you both the best! He's a tough little guy!
Amanda

 

[nordica]

@PonchoandDaddy - Perhaps you're right. The funny thing is, is that he hadn't started up the multiple pooping thing again until I DID start feeding him some greens... maybe it's just his body's way of trying to rid itself of something. Hey, at least it's not diarrhea. :roll:

@dragonlover3 - Thank you so much for your kind words; you pretty much hit the nail on the head! I've got tears spilling out of my eyes, reading that. Though I'm sure the bottle of wine I'm drinking might have a *bit* to do with my overabundance of emotion (I had my very own personal Oscars party, just for me, complete with the aforementioned bottle of wine, a pound of strawberries, chocolate, and scented candles... I feel much more relaxed now, albeit loopy). I'm sure my coworkers are sick of hearing about Leo, as that's all I ever talk about on my trips. I've pretty much become one of those parents whose only contribution to a conversation is the latest stories of their kids... except my kids are tiny and scaly. :mrgreen:

 

[dragonlover3]

I never had a beardie til August when I rescued 2 malnourished beardies both with severe respiratory infections I found on Craigslist. I knew they were sick when I got them. And I fell in love with them. I read and learned everything I could, spending hours and hours reading this forum, multiple vet visits, injections of antibiotics, injections of B vitamins, several courses of oral antibiotics to try to end the persistent, recurrent respiratory infections they both had as well as meds for the horrible infestations of worms, parasites and giardia, syringe feeding both of them baby food and supplements for weeks and weeks because both were so underweight and had no appetite, giving appetite stimulates that didn't work either, sitting up all night in a chair so many nights holding them upright so they could breath better as I listening to them wheeze and crackle with every breath, sad and crying at 2 and 3am not knowing if either would survive one more night. Blood tests, x rays, a hospital stay. Seeking advice from members here on this forum who helped so much. It took hours to prep and care for both of them everyday. It would take 30 to 45 minutes to syringe feed 1 of them 2, 3 or 4 mls and I fed them both 3 times a day. Luckily I'm retired and able to spend the time need for them. I'm lucky in that my husband also eagerly helped when he could. They probably would have died if they didn't have us and our undivided attention for months. It took months for them to recover from the respiratory infections and gain weight. A couple of months ago I found a fungus on each of them so another vet visit. They have not been housed together since I've had them. I'm a nurse so hand washing and aseptic techniques were always used and I always even changed my shirts for care from one to the other so the fungus was a big surprise. Then I got 2 more rescues in December, one with a respiratory infection, so multiple vet visits for her, 3 courses of antibiotic to get rid of her respiratory infection, syringe feeding her 3 times a day because of no appetite while on the med. She has recovered, hurray! My 2 new rescues are healthy and so far haven't got the fungus. I keep their tanks in a separate room as I work hard to make sure my 2 new ones don't get it. Now 6 months later my first 2 rescues each have been treated twice daily for the past couple of months for the fungus. They are shedding a heavy med shed and so far are looking clear but there is more shed still to come off. I have high hopes it's gone because I was religious with twice a day treatments. Sometimes I'm just so tired and it feels like it's never ending, one thing after another. I'm impatient for them to be healthy and frustrated and sad because they aren't yet. Moya and Talon are my first 2 rescues, Zhaan and Dargo are my 2 new rescues. They really are like my kids too, tiny and scaly. I love all 4 of them so much!

I didn't mean to make ya cry, even with the wine, just wanted you to know I really do know how you feel!
Amanda

 

[ShannyBeard]

I can't help but love Leo. A video was posted of him as a normal beardie, when he was really sick, and I had pain in my chest watching it, and he isn't even mine. He just seems so special. I am so glad he is doing better. I wonder if he is like my Grandpa and has some form of 'hiatal hernia' or something with his esophagus. I bet the meds are harsh enough to cause some irritation in that area. Wonder if they can prescribe an antacid. Wouldn't that be sweet - just a little Tums or something. Well, I am always hoping for Leo and looking for good news. I love hearing how much he eats.

 

[Menolly07]

I think this calls for a round of wine and hugs all around, or fruit juice if you don't drink. Heavy on the hugs. For serious! <3<3<3 So much love handed about so freely and easily. It's a gorgeous thing. For our scaley kids, minibeasts, reptibabies, chillycritters, lizard babies, whatever we call them, and for each other. Love and hugs and drinks for all!

 

[nordica]

So it seems as though Leo is taking a turn for the worse.

It's getting harder and harder to get any food into him, he has an increase in the regurgitation/swallowing symptom, more and more I'm finding froth at his mouth, and his energy level is dropping. I just don't know what else I'm supposed to do.

My Vet called me back today, with the results of the recent tests. On the one hand, the gram stain shows that the yeasts are gone (though there is still a lot of bacteria), but on the other, his WBC count is still right at the elevated level that it's been at for months now. Once again, a percentage of "unusual" reactive cells were found, but apparently the other Vet who has treated Leo in the past (and who is the main one who will read the test results at their office) has ruled out cancer. In almost the same breath though, my Vet said that such a chronic wasting illness like this a lot of times will present itself as cancer. He had also mentioned Cryptosporidium again, even though he knows we've tested for it twice, using two different tests, and both times it has come back negative. What the heck am I supposed to believe??? I think the Vet is honestly stumped, and that's why he keeps coming back to the things we've ruled out, because in every other case that has presented itself similar to this one, those were the diagnoses.

He had mentioned testing for Adenovirus, even though Leo's test results haven't shown that there's anything wrong with his liver (which apparently is something one would see with the virus). I once again mentioned to him the suggestion of testing for Aspergillosis, and pretty much put my foot down saying that I finally wanted it done. We also again discussed taking the x-rays using a barium swallow, to focus on his GI tract. I asked him to put together an estimate for that, the Adenovirus test, and the Aspergillosis test, and get back to me. He said he would research things more, and hopefully get back to me by the end of the week.

 

[mistygirl]

I hope they can find out what is wrong with your poor Leo. Does your vet have any other vets in his circle who may have some ideas? I know how costly this all is and it is so worth it IF you can get a firm diagnosis. He seemed to be on the upswing but now he doesn't want to eat again? Have they been able to isolate the type of bacterias that are still lurking within your poor darling Leo? I, (as I am sure everyone following your thread) am praying hard that you can get a firm diagnosis and have the answers you are looking for and can treat whatever is wrong.

 

[nordica]

@mistygirl - So the two Vets that I use routinely bounce things off of each other, as they have been doing with Leo. They both had gotten their Veterinarian degrees through UC Davis, and started their practice over 20 years ago. They're really reputable Vets... I just think they're both truly stumped about Leo. I also have a feeling that they're both starting to lose hope about saving him. And no, they haven't isolated the specific bacterias, per say. I remember at one point the Vet telling me that the bacteria found had pretty much been the normal kind one would expect to find. And yes, Leo is eating even less now. Granted, he won't eat on his own, so I'm having to hand-feed him, but he's being more and more difficult and spitting out more and more of what I manage to get into his mouth.

It's all gone back to a very frustrating place again.

 

[Esther19]

I'm so sorry to hear of Leo's setback. Next will be another 2 steps forward. Hang in there! I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers your way! Esther

 

[Menolly07]

I'm so absolutely sorry to read that! :-( I'm going to Copy-Past something I left several pages back but am not sure you saw, just in case:
"I did see something about microsporidia. It said that it's an intracellular protozoan parasite and that the beardies can be "inappetent and depressed," At the time of the book's publication it had been known in some reptiles and amphibians but not in beardies. However, Dr Elliott Jackson did find 1st cases in beardies.

I didn't know if it was one of the things your amazingly incredible and thorough supervets had tested for, but this book has a publishers' date of 2001. I know that's not immediately recent, but if it was a new idea at publication maybe it's still relatively new now?

I'm not meaning to bombard with useless extra stuff but saw this and thought it may be something not covered yet. Goodness knows I'm not a vet and don't think I know more then them and certainly not more then your awesome guys. I just fresh saw it and immediately thought of Leo and "I wonder if?""

 

[dragonlover3]

Oh Nordica,
I'm so sorry Leo isn't doing well again. Everyone can see how much you love
him and how well you take care of him. I'm thinking of you and your Leo, the
poor little guy!
Hugs and Healing Thoughts,
Amanda

 

[Kalyn876]

As for the adeno testing (Drache613) has a lab that she works with to do a PCR (I think that's what it is) test. All you have to do is contact her get the swabs; swab his poop then send them back to her, it's about $20.00 per test which is very cheap. I have a negative beardie and a positive so I plan to retest at least once a year. The adeno test my vet did previously was invasive and expensive!

I really hope you guys can figure the mystery out