Swollen Leg and Foot

[mygirlz]

Elliot is about 8 months old. I got him in December. I'm assuming he was a week or two old then. The crickets are small for him. They're 1/2 grown so like 1/2-3/4 inch. I have to buy them smaller because of Animal. I thought I was overfeeding them both so I only gave Animal 10 today and Elliot went without. Just veggies. I am frustrated. I want to help and do what's best for them, but it's really been a lot of work. My husband often jokes they get better treatment than he does...lol. I have already ordered the Phoenix worms. We'll use them both for a while I guess. What do u suggest as the best for them? It seems like silkworm has a lot of positive attributes for the beardies. Anyway, I'm not sure how many crickets to give them daily, not sure how many worms either, when they come. I don't want to make them sick by over feeding, but I don't want to starve them either....

Jenny

 

[AHBD]

I agree that you are making progress and that he's doing better right now.

Elliott probably just scarfed down too many crickets at one time, and it may be that his meds. made him a bit queasy as well. Just give him half that amount and be sure it's not late in the day . Offer his insects twice a day to break the feedings up in to smaller numbers of bugs. He'll probably be fine the next time he eats, try giving him 15 of the medium crix today, or try 10 early in the day, then again late afternoon.

The silkworms would be fine, give them a try as part of his diet if you want, same with calci or Phoenix worms.

 

[mygirlz]

Someone's having a good day!!! Looking happy after his crickets!!!

 

[AHBD]

Hey, that's good to hear. Be sure he stays warm. mostly in his tank [ especially for a few hours after eating ] Offer a few more later in the day, not too many and not too late in the day.

 

[mygirlz]

Update on Elliot:

He is doing great! We've been through two months of the meds... He seems to be cured , however, I'm afraid :? to stop giving him the meds. I have 2 more refills I can get, and we're almost finished with the second round. Any thoughts on this??? :idea: Posting a pic so y'all can see him again. I'm so appreciative of all your help and support!!!

Jenny & Elliot

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is terrific Elliot is doing so much better! I can tell the swelling has gone down.
Since he has gout though, it was diagnosed gout, correct? If so, he will likely need the meds
for his lifetime, to manage his kidney function.
I'm happy he has made such a great recovery!

Tracie

 

[mygirlz]

Hi Tracie,

I'm not sure if the doc actually diagnosed him with gout... Remember, she wanted to give him an antibiotic as well?! I will continue to give him his meds, but how do I know? I guess I'll have to call the vet again and probably take home back in... In any case, he is doing amazing!

Jenny

 

[EllenD]

I just read through this entire post, props to Tracie for helping you, she definitely is the authority on gout and Adenovirus, she studies these diseases for a living, so I'd definitely listen to her over the vet every day of the week. Unfortunately we're seeing more and more vets prescribe unnecessary meds, the wrong meds, and playing guessing games without testing. Your vet at least ran the appropriate blood work, most don't. You have 2 beardies with extremely different health issues, do they need to be fed completely differently, it's not a single diet for both.

Your beardie absolutely has gout, which is a lifetime disease in beardies, people, dogs, etc. He'll absolutely need to be on the Allopurinol for the rest of his life, but at a low daily dose unless he's having a flare-up with sudden swelling, pain and trouble moving, etc. Then they should raise the dose temporarily until the flare-up ends, then back to the lower daily dose. If you were to take him off the Allopurinol daily he would go right back into a horrible flare-up, and would eventually die of kidney failure. Unfortunately there is no cure for gout in beardies or in people, but luckily it is easy managed by taking daily Allopurinol and lowering his daily intake of protein.

 

[EllenD]

The reason your vet originally prescribed the antibiotic was because his blood panel showed elevated lymphocytes. Under normal circumstances, elevated lymphocytes is an indication of either an infection, however, in a beardie with gout that is going through an active flare-up, as Elliott was when the original blood work was done, elevated lymphocytes are COMPLETELY NORMAL because they are simply a reaction to the swelling caused by the gout, and are in no way an indication or a bacterial infection that would require an antibiotic. As the Allopurinol is given and the swelling goes down, so does the lymphocyte count. So this is the reason that Tracie correctly told you to not give Elliot the antibiotic, as you never want to give a beardie unnecessary meds because they are so harsh on their symptoms. If Elliott had independent symptoms of a bacterial infection it would be different, but for a beardie with pretty severe gout, which Elliott very obviously has, the elevated lymphocytes are completely normal, and no antibiotic is necessary, and would not only do no good, but would cause unneeded stress and further effect his appetite negatively.

Crickets are very much a staple feeder, in fact they are the number 1 beardie staple feeder if gut-loaded. I don't know who told you that crickets are "only an occasional feeder and not a staple", but that's completely wrong and untrue. I bet 80% or more of beardie owners feed gut-loaded crickets as their main or only live feeder insects with no issues at all. Crickets did not cause Elliott to develop gout, usually gout is caused by a combination of genetics and improper UVB lighting in beardies, and your compact 13watt Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb is not nearly strong enough for a bearded dragon, especially if it's on top of a mesh lid, which can block up to 50% of the already too weak UVB light, so he essentially was getting no UVB light. And if your other beardie was diagnosed with MBD and had the same compact 13 watt Reptisun 10.0 UVB light, this is most likely what caused the MBD. It's so unfortunate that pet shops, vets, and even breeders give horrible husbandry advice, but they are the cause of most MBD in beardies.

 

[EllenD]

I hope you got both your beardies a proper long, flourescent, UVB tube by now. You definitely do want the Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube, but it has to be a long tube, either 18" or 24" long at a minimum length, inside a matching long, flourescent tube fixture with a reflector behind the tube and no clear plastic safety cover on the fixture, and over the UVB tube. There are 2 different strengths of Reptisun 10.0 UVB tubes (you NEVER want a Reptisun 5.0 tube, they are for tropical reptiles and do absolutely no good for beardies)...The 2 strengths of the Reptisun 10.0 UVB tubes are the T8 tube and the T5 High-Output tube. Either strength of Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube is fine for beardies, but they do differ in that they have different requirements for how to mount them and when to replace them.

The Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube is the weaker if the tow tubes. It absolutely must be mounted under the mesh lid and inside the enclosure, as the T8 tube is not strong enough to penetrate the mesh lid, so up to 50% of the UVB light emitted is blocked, and the T8 tube is not strong enough to overcome the mesh lid. The T8 tube must also be mounted inside the tank and under the mesh lid at a distance within 6"-8" of his main basking spot in order for him to absorb adequate UVB light. Also, the T8 tube must be replaced every 6 months, as it stops emitting UVB light at that age even though it still turns on and emits general light. The Reptisun 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tube is strong enough that it can rest on top of the mesh lid (never on glass though, no UVB light, including natural sunlight, penetrates glass), but the T5HO still must be within 11" of his main basking spot for him to get adequate UVB light. Also, the 10.0 T5HO tube must be replaced every 10 months to a year, as it stops emitting UVB light at that age.

Without one of these long, flourescent UVB tubes, your beardies cannot manufacture any vitamin D3, which makes them unable to absorb any nutrition or Calcium/multivitamin powders you're giving them, and this is how they develop the MBD and the gout. I would highly recommend the Reptisun 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tubes, I've used only these (and one Arcadia 12% tube once, which is the other fantastic brand of beardie UVB tubes) and never had a beardie with a single illness, not even parasites, and my prior boy lived to almost 13 years old. Both your beardies would benefit greatly from the Reptisun 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tubes, 18" is fine, as they both have serious life-long diseases that proper wavelength and strength of UVB light can remedy and even reverse. Right now Amazon.com has the 24" 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tubes on sale for $24.99 a piece (less than the cheaper T8 tubes), and once you select the tube, if you scroll down the page they offer a package deal that also includes a matching 24" T5 flourescent tube fixture. It's the best investment you can make for your beardies if you're still using the 13 watt compact Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulbs.

 

[EllenD]

One last thing I forgot to add, as you mentioned this but no one explained to you, Silkworms are the best live feeder for Elliot by far because he has gout. The lining of the intestinal tract of a Silkworm contains an enzyme called serapeptase, which is known to treat the swelling and pain of gout extremely effectively. You can actually buy serapeptase as a nutritional supplement in a bottle too, and it works, but if you can find live Silkworms to buy in bulk online as feeders for Elliot, they would be a great benefit to him. A lot of people actually bypass buying live Silkworms due to cost or trouble finding them and instead buy bulk Silkworm eggs, which are extremely cheap, and food for the Silkworms called "Silkworm Chow", which is made from mulberry leaves and is also cheap. You can buy 500 Silkworm eggs for around $12, or 1,000-2,000 Silkworm eggs for under $30, and the chow for $10 a huge jar. They're very easy to propagate and keep going, you'll save a fortune on crickets or roaches, and they'll do wonders for Elliot's gout.

The Phoenix Worms/BSFL/Reptiworms/Calciworms (all the same thing, just different brands) are also excellent feeders, and would be the best live staple feeder for your beardie with MBD because of their extremely high calcium content. I actually have been feeding BSFL as my main staple feeder for years and years, with occasional superworms and hornworms/Butterworms as treats. The BSFL naturally contain a high calcium level (though you should still dust them with a multivitamin and occasionally calcium, I use Repashy Calcium Plus multivitamin supplement because it contains both calcium and natural sources of vitamins rather than synthetic vitamins). If you're already buying the BSFL in bulk somewhere that's great (I use www.symtonbsf.com), try to remember to always feed the darkest colored worms first, as they contain the highest calcium content and are going to turn soon anyway.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jenny,

I am so happy that Elliot is doing so much better.
I think he's responded very well to the allopurinol. You can always lower the daily dose, for a
maintenance dose for him. Allopurinol is designed for long term use, so, it normally doesn't
become toxic. Just keep him well hydrated to help out his kidneys.
You can supplement his diet with Alfalfa powder, since it's purine free & easy on the kidneys
plus it will still give him protein without so many bugs. I would definitely recommend giving
crickets over roaches because I feel roaches are higher in purine & harder on the kidneys. As
suggested, the Silkworms are extremely helpful for joints & great insects for feeding, too.

Tracie