Surgery, Blood transfusion, Internal bleeding (potentially) not confirmed, Sudden onset anemia, potential aneurism, possible tear in her reproductive

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

Surgery, Blood transfusion, Internal bleeding (potentially) not confirmed, Sudden onset anemia, potential aneurism, possible tear in her reproductive area due to 7 sacks being present etc.



Long story short: Echo stayed in the hospital overnight due to her having a black beard for longer than 24hrs,lethargic,not eating, very week and unable to hold herself up. After evaluating her: the dr did not have good news when she called to update me today. All of the above were the concerns the dr mentioned. Echos red blood cell count went from 35 less than a week ago:to now currently at 7. She said she would need to stay in the hospital until Sunday to continue receiving fluids and monitoring and surgery to remove the sacks but would need a blood transfusion in order to survive the surgery. She’s not even sure if that’s the cause of the sudden drop in her red blood cell count: so I panicked and I’m not 100% sure that I made the right decision by coming to pick her up (against what the dr recommended) but she was in far worse condition since having dropped her off. Help! 2nd opinion!? @Drache613

 

[xp29]

@Drache613 is 0n late night i think, you might get a faster response by messaging her directly.

 

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

@Drache613 is 0n late night i think, you might get a faster response by messaging her directly.

Thank you

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Sorry, it is late here & I will review the documents you graciously uploaded here for us,
later on.
They removed eggs or follicles? Is that what you are referring to as sacs?
Her calcium levels were high, but not overwhelmingly so. The AST & Uric acid levels
look normal.
What caused her internal bleeding, did they say?
She is currently at home with you, correct? Are you able to get any food or fluids into
her right now?
She has definitely been on quite a bit of medication which in itself is very stressful on
her. Try to keep her stabilized & warm overnight, if possible. To try & get her iron levels
up you can give kelp daily, or liquid mineral drops, daily. Blackstrap molasses is very
rich in minerals so you could use a drop or two of that, mixed in with food, etc for her.

I'll check back in later today (Sunday) to see how she is doing.
Tracie

 

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

Hello,

Sorry, it is late here & I will review the documents you graciously uploaded here for us,
later on.
They removed eggs or follicles? Is that what you are referring to as sacs?
Her calcium levels were high, but not overwhelmingly so. The AST & Uric acid levels
look normal.
What caused her internal bleeding, did they say?
She is currently at home with you, correct? Are you able to get any food or fluids into
her right now?
She has definitely been on quite a bit of medication which in itself is very stressful on
her. Try to keep her stabilized & warm overnight, if possible. To try & get her iron levels
up you can give kelp daily, or liquid mineral drops, daily. Blackstrap molasses is very
rich in minerals so you could use a drop or two of that, mixed in with food, etc for her.

I'll check back in later today (Sunday) to see how she is doing.
Tracie

She currently has the follicles which the dr called sacs. She said the fact that her red blood cell count dropped so drastically that means she has an internal bleed somewhere and could potentially be from the sac’s ripping her reproductive lining? But no internal bleed has been found so she said surgery is recommended to see better and find if there is an internal bleed or not and at the same time remove the sacs and neuter her. She (the dr)also said she wouldn’t survive the surgery unless she had a blood transfusion and finding a donor is difficult. I’m not really sure how things went from a biopsy which confirmed a bacterial skin infection to all of a sudden she potentially has internal bleeding and requires surgery and they wanted her to remain in the hospital until today and I panicked and went and got her. She’s slowly been doing better each day since I picked her up. I didn’t think she was going to make it when I first saw her after she spent the night there. She’s doing better but definitely not her normal self, and I can tell she isn’t feeling good. But she’s been pooping everyday and they are normal and she has drank some water from her dish by herself. Not as much as she usually drinks but some, and yesterday I got her to eat a blue horned worm and some critical care. Today she ate 5 wax worms. I have not given her any of the meds from the hospital. Instead I’ve decided to stick with serapepptase 2x a day I ordered it from a (bearded dragon supplies website) and the topical antibiotic ointment on her skin (from the hospital) and I’m hoping the meds didn’t do too much damage. I feel they went overboard and caused her more issues than she originally had. I don’t know how things escalated so fast but I don’t trust taking her back there. Plus I requested several times for them to send me all of the test results and images and everything and they still haven’t. I sent you everything they provided which doesn’t show much compared to all of the testing they supposedly did. I scheduled a follow up appt tomorrow with her regular dr. So I’m going to see what he has to say about the whole thing. Where can I get the kelp,mineral drops and blackstrap molasses from? Any specifics you recommend? Doesn’t this whole thing seem odd? I am terrified thinking what would have happened if I left her in their care any longer. Thank you for your continued support I wish I could bring her to you because I know you’d be able to help.

 

[DorgEndo]

Sweetie_Cheeks

I'm not the vet tech - putting in 2 cents.

I agree with you that this is odd. Of course they should provide you a copy of the reports. I find it alarming in the chemistry blood results they do not list the values for red blood cells or white cells results! For anemia or any blood loss that is the result numbers you would need to get a proper second opinion. It's not okay they left that out!

Them reporting to you that "red blood cell count went from 35 to 7" doesn't mean anything without the value they are using. They might mean percent of blood volume, that's my best guess. Internal bleeding should be able to be seen easily by an ultrasound. The only number 35 on the papers you listed is "BA < 35 umol/L". Which might mean Basophils - a type of white blood cell - which would not be a value to measure anemia. These reports are confusing.

If there is anemia and bleeding they should have suggested an ultrasound before exploratory surgery to confirm if and where there is bleeding. So I'm not the vet tech, but I think they are giving you bad advice. Can you go to another vet hospital and sign a request consent for for them to receive all copies or records? Get someone on your side to have them hand over all the records, if another vet clinic requests all records and they have your Signature giving permission they are obligated to provide everything

 

[DorgEndo]

It does say WBC = 7400 and PVC = 32%.

PVC% depending on how they did the test should be a normal value. Packed cell volume. How much of the blood is cells compared to fluids. My vet gives the range of 23-39% as normal for a bearded dragon from the hematocrit test (HCT) for this value.

WBC = 7400. Did they mean total white blood cells? The range is wide, my vet gives the value 2.8-14.6 1000/µL as normal range. They just list 7400 without a measurement which is confusing. White blood cell count for bearded dragons include Heterophils (the most common white blood cell), Bands (immature heterophils), lymphocytes, monocytes, azurophillic monocytes, basophils, and eosinophils. If the basophils were 35 /µL that would track with the skin infection you noticed, but I'm not Tracie so add some salt to my human medical world reading into veterinary world values. Usually the vast majority of WBC are heterophils and any elevation of the other types of WBC are proof of types of infections based on which WBC value is elevated

 

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

Sweetie_Cheeks

I'm not the vet tech - putting in 2 cents.

I agree with you that this is odd. Of course they should provide you a copy of the reports. I find it alarming in the chemistry blood results they do not list the values for red blood cells or white cells results! For anemia or any blood loss that is the result numbers you would need to get a proper second opinion. It's not okay they left that out!

Them reporting to you that "red blood cell count went from 35 to 7" doesn't mean anything without the value they are using. They might mean percent of blood volume, that's my best guess. Internal bleeding should be able to be seen easily by an ultrasound. The only number 35 on the papers you listed is "BA < 35 umol/L". Which might mean Basophils - a type of white blood cell - which would not be a value to measure anemia. These reports are confusing.

If there is anemia and bleeding they should have suggested an ultrasound before exploratory surgery to confirm if and where there is bleeding. So I'm not the vet tech, but I think they are giving you bad advice. Can you go to another vet hospital and sign a request consent for for them to receive all copies or records? Get someone on your side to have them hand over all the records, if another vet clinic requests all records and they have your Signature giving permission they are obligated to provide everything

I 10000% thought so! I even asked if they would be able to see internal bleeding (they saw the sacs) so I assumed they should be able to see internal bleeding but the lady said they didn’t see anything and that’s why they needed to do surgery to be able to see better. I WAS COMPLETELY BAFFLED. I was crying the entire time and they basically put it to me like: she is internally bleeding and not going to make it if she doesn’t have this surgery that she will not survive through without a blood transfusion….It made absolutely no sense to me how all of that came from a bacterial skin infection. She’s almost back to normal now and seems almost as though nothing ever happened. So now I’m really convinced they had no idea what they were talking about. I will have her dr request the rest of the documents and post them here when I get them. Even her regular dr isn’t the most knowledgeable but at least he doesn’t try to kill her. So I’m hoping we get more answers tomorrow. Thank you for your support it’s very much appreciated.

 

[AHBD]

Can you post pics of Echo Lina ? Of her problem skin area ? I think the vets are taking you for a ride again, is this the 8th vet or one of the previous ones.

 

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

Can you post pics of Echo Lina ? Of her problem skin area ? I think the vets are taking you for a ride again, is this the 8th vet or one of the previous ones.

This is Vet #8. And I was thinking the same thing. Luckily I didn’t make any decisions while extremely emotional. The pictures are in order from before until now. Her belly got darker also but I don’t have a recent pic of it. However, it’s starting to look a little better. At one point she had a continuous shed for like 3 months straight, and the skin remains stuck now and no shedding at all. It’s the strangest thing. Her eyes kept shedding over and over also.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am glad it wasn't just me! I read through it several times, looking at the test results, etc
& didn't see the WBC counts, as someone mentioned already. It was just given as a
percentage. The Heterophils are the most common counts but can be off during brumation
phases, or infection of course. No mention of Lymphocytes levels at all, which should be on
a WBC reading. Where is the heme/hematocric & iron levels?
If she were bleeding internally, her beard would likely be black, & she probably would have
blood in her stool or it would be visible in an ultrasound.
I agree, that seems very odd & sudden to me. To have to receive a blood transfusion so quickly
after all of the other problems doesn't seem right. Is she having trouble laying her eggs then?
It is somewhat common for follicles to bunch up when they aren't developed but if she is truly
having some issues such as peritonitis, that is different.
Thanks for everyone's input, I appreciate it!
Is your dragon doing a bit better tonight?

Tracie

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I just posted & you must have been posting/uploading your pictures!
So the most current pictures of her are on the bottom, correct? The skin problems do look like
they are improving. She does seem to be much better on the skin condition based on the pictures.

Tracie

 

[AHBD]

O.K, you got good info from Dorgendo and Drache. Her belly looks fine, my beardie's belly looks like that at any given time. I've owned beardies for 25 + years btw, so this type of color on the belly is no health problem. My 2 boys are 11 yrs. old now, clutchmates that hatched here in my home. I think that all of the products and bathing have probably kept Echo Lina's skin/scales from properly drying out and contributed to the dark areas and would again suggest leaving it be. Maybe a little bit of raw honey once a week after her scales are dried off for a week or two.

 

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

Hello,

I just posted & you must have been posting/uploading your pictures!
So the most current pictures of her are on the bottom, correct? The skin problems do look like
they are improving. She does seem to be much better on the skin condition based on the pictures.

Tracie

Yes the most recent are on the bottom, I’ve stopped applying products to her skin. Currently just the ointment given by the hospital. It’s a really strong antibiotic ointment but I’m not sure it’s good either due to the fact that it looks like it’s killing her scales/look dead/black and some falling off. However, I did take her for the follow up today with her regular dr and he re tested her blood and said she’s at 22% now. He gave her an iron injection along with B12, fluids and antibiotic that I will have to inject every 3 days. He checked her mucous membranes and said they were much more pale than he’d like to see but the iron should help with that. He also said he couldn’t believe they jumped to surgery so quickly and he definitely does not recommend that especially if her bc was at 7% at the time. Unsure as to why her Bc dropped and is still lower than normal (27 is the lowest) they want to see, but wants to see her back next week to re check everything. Any idea what can cause such a fluctuation in rbc? He didn’t recommend anything for topical except silver sulfzidine cream. This whole thing seems so crazy to me. It seems so hard to get a real diagnosis followed by the appropriate treatment.

 

[Sweetie_Cheeks]

O.K, you got good info from Dorgendo and Drache. Her belly looks fine, my beardie's belly looks like that at any given time. I've owned beardies for 25 + years btw, so this type of color on the belly is no health problem. My 2 boys are 11 yrs. old now, clutchmates that hatched here in my home. I think that all of the products and bathing have probably kept Echo Lina's skin/scales from properly drying out and contributed to the dark areas and would again suggest leaving it be. Maybe a little bit of raw honey once a week after her scales are dried off for a week or two.

I do believe you’re right. I over complicate things sometimes and go overboard and I think that’s what happened with all of the skin products and stuff. I need to let nature work itself out. I just love her so much and wanted to get her better, I didn’t want her suffering from the skin infection but I’ve managed to make things 10x worse I think. I sometimes forget she’s a reptile and they require different ways of caring for. I just hope now that she makes a full recovery and can live her best life you guys are amazing on here, you really are. And I just want to thank you all so very much for your help and true genuine support. It means so much, and I hope you guys know how important you all are! I am Truly thankful.