Selective breeding and creating new color morphs.

[Pravius]

I was wondering if a professional might be able to help with a few questions that I have. I was thinking about starting a breeding project and really want to mess around with the different color morphs and possibly discover and or create a line of dragons. Now I am somewhat familiar with how selective breeding works and it seems to involve some sort of inbreeding.

Now without being flamed to death on here I am just asking these questions to breeders who have experience with this and only using this for information and not trying to get anyone upset.

The question I had is how often you typically inbreed, what is considered safe, without hurting the animal and without ruining the integrity of the line you are working with.

Like for instance how many generations do you go before crossing the lines again? Just any tips would be appreciated.

 

[Twobeardieguy]

I am just offering you my advice and not flaming you!! The breeders who do inbreed, are not considered a reputable breeder. You will probably not get any advice on here about inbreeding. If you want to change colors lines out I recommend getting other dragons!! I have been breeding 6-7 years and never crossed lines anywhere in the tree!! The reason being there would be health problems of some sort and just not good practices! But im sure people do it!! As Tracie said that begins destroying the genetics & the lines of health. I would just not advise it!! But whatever you do good luck!!

 

[Pravius]

I know it's not good to do consistently but I mean isn't that how we got to where we are today with the different colors? Believe me I care about my animals, more than anything and would NEVER do anything to harm them.... but I mean somewhere down the line someone had to have crossed genes to get these colors we are seeing today.

 

[spyder79]

That is not completely true. It is very possible to get colors like what we have and the new lines we have popping up without having to inbreed. Genetic "deformities" do not normally only pop up in one line. Is it easier to just cross the line to garuntee the color yes but it is not necessary. Of course I dont have any background in having practiced this as i think far too much emphasice is put on the color or "malformation" of dragons these days such as "super trans" which are see through literally. Good luck but i do doubt that on this forum you will get any information that will help you decide to inbreed. I would however suggest hitting up breeders 1 on 1 to discuss it. There are a number of resale sites that you could contact an unbelievable amount of breeders through. And i am sure some of them cross lines as a normal practice.

 

[Pravius]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the constructive replies. I do not necessarily plan on doing this but was just curious to see how we got to where we are today as far as genetics. I am not sure how the "first" morph came up... whether it be cross breeding between the various types of dragons found, inbreeding, or whatever I am curious.

I do care very much for my animals and would not do anything to harm them, the integrity of their lines, and vigor so I really do not think that I will do this but was just curious more then anything. Thanks for the replies so far, and please keep them coming.

 

[jargonchipmunk]

while no one on here would inbreed on purpose, it is certainly done. With the large amount of specimens from some of the more common color morphs being sold, it is nearly impossible for the average hobbyist to even KNOW where all of the genetics are coming from, much less avoid crossing a line. It's most likely a few generations down the road, but I can assure you, it's done. To be honest, you'd have to speak with a geneticist who also happens to be an avid BD breeder to get a TRUE answer to your questions regarding this, as most small breeders can only offer speculation that was offered them over the internet. Inbreeding might weaken the brood, it might make them stronger. It might make them sprout wings and fly away! (kidding of course)

Also, I can assure you it happens in the wild. However, if it does weaken the genetic strain, then that would be nature's way of thinning out an area too populated with them.

Best of luck with your project, and I would consider going to a geneticist or similar for more specific answers as to what effects it actually has on the brood.

 

[Pravius]

I realized that in doing some research I may have used the wrong terminology for what I was describing to do. What I was actually referring to was line breeding... not necessarily the same thing but may not be considered ok.... thoughts?

Like Grandpa to granddaughter... ect.

 

[mpinsky]

It is still considered inbreeding. While seperating the lines by more and more generations lessens the likelyhood of genetic abnormalities, it is still not as viable as breeding from two seperate families.

 

[jargonchipmunk]

It is still considered inbreeding. While seperating the lines by more and more generations lessens the likelyhood of genetic abnormalities, it is still not as viable as breeding from two seperate families.

you can't keep breeding from two different families indefinitely. It just doesn't work. All of the beardies we have today have been bred from original specimens brought from another CONTINENT. No one here is catching anything new in the wild to breed into their captive strains for genetic diversity. You shouldn't breed father and daughter together time and again or you'll have issues, but any time you breed in this hobby you're breeding some sort of cousin. Especially the high color morphs.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Hey there,
Jargon brought up a very good point. The average hobbyist cannot trace genetic lines more than 1 generation if they are lucky. So yes im sure inbreeding does take place. Now I have been getting my breeders from a varied aray of sources so my chances of inbreeding are low, but it isnt impossible. It all comes down to numbers and breeders with a high hatch rate tend to flood the area's they are in with thier baby's. This causes me to say call Hiedi on the left coast when its time to get new lines added. Im no geneticist but I would personally never breed relation to relation. I would rather breed healthy normals before that. Just chiming in.
Tom

 

[jargonchipmunk]

Hey there,
Jargon brought up a very good point. The average hobbyist cannot trace genetic lines more than 1 generation if they are lucky. So yes im sure inbreeding does take place. Now I have been getting my breeders from a varied aray of sources so my chances of inbreeding are low, but it isnt impossible. It all comes down to numbers and breeders with a high hatch rate tend to flood the area's they are in with thier baby's. This causes me to say call Hiedi on the left coast when its time to get new lines added. Im no geneticist but I would personally never breed relation to relation. I would rather breed healthy normals before that. Just chiming in.
Tom

^this guy breeds beautiful dragons, and I think this quote is exactly what I was trying to get at. A responsible breeder won't do it intentionally, but has enough knowledge of the hobby to know that they're going to run into it eventually anyway. (say, greatuncle, twice removed sort of thing lol) With the handful of "famous" lines of dragons out there, it's impossible to avoid "crossing lines" even if it's not YOUR lines you're crossing. Just be as careful as you can to avoid it. (don't be the schmoe that breeds from the same hatch) Do that, and I think you'll still be able to end up with fulfilling breeding projects, good colors, and happy healthy dragons, which of course turns into happy customers if that's what you're after in the long run.

 

[spyder79]

yeah tom always has been able to articulate his thought into typed word much better than myself. lol

 

[Pravius]

Very well said guys and gals! All the info in this thread was exactly what I was looking for and appreciate all the honest feedback without ripping me open and gutting me for asking!!! I am just really curious to how some of these people are getting these crazy morphs like the leatherbacks, and then silkbacks, ect. It just seems to opportunistic to just have them hatch out of nowhere.

Anywho... thanks again, and I have decided that based on the respectable people here that I will not do this for the sake of the animal and the integrity of the industry... bunch of good folks here!

 

[citrusdragon]

I was thinking that there are obviously enough dragons hatching in the US you could probably find unrelated dragons with a similar color trait you might want to reproduce. I have a green dragon, pure lime green, no pattern. She would be a nice start to produce a green line if I was diligent about seeking true green offspring in some of the larger colonies. I believe that is what your talking about. As far as the 1 in a million morph and line breeding, you can see the public wants no part of that kind of bloodline. You would probably spend a lot of money for the individuals only to probably find the morph is more difficult to produce that first thought.

As for my green female, I keep my eyes open for a true green male, but the only one's I see come from the trans line and it is really only a tinted yellow/orange that looks green for a time.

Breeding truly unique bloodlines would be more time consuming than most people would like. I hear Josh @ Phantom Dragons has been working with trans for almost 6 years :shock:


IMO the new morphs come as surprises randomly in well planned breed pairs.

Jeff

 

[Kelcifer]

wasnt josh at Phantom dragons the first to breed trans? i think bloodbanks got their first trans from josh and they paid alot for it. but look at where steve at bloodbanks is now. i went to his website today and he produced a dark purple trans female. shes a doll! and my first trans was from him and she is a female and shes one of the greatest dragons in looks, health, temperment, and personality. i think the hypo trans and the leather trans are the more popular morph today. super trans is coming in next i think if people can produce more of them. but what are the current health risk involved with the super trans? what about the silkies? will the UV rays cause some sort of skin cancer in the future? when breeding for morphs current and new you have to stop and think about the long term effects to the health of the dragon and the offspring it may or may not have. linebreeding and inbredding is bad no matter how you slice it.
my pit bull inbreeding/linebreeding is 37.8% and an average dog is only about 7% through out its pedigree. my pit has a few health problems so dont his littermates. his parents were half siblings or possibly whole siblings i cant remember tes is 9 years old now and he looks like hes 17.
if you can avoid it do so. as someone else stated you can always find a matching dragon thats unrelated to breed to. good luck in find a new morph