Sarth, Daeds, & Starling **5/28 First Camping Trip Pics!**

I figured I would post some pics of Sarth...even though he hasn't been eating very well the past month he still finds every opportunity to be cute! I think I might just keep adding pics to this thread along with my blog, we will see!

The most recent ones are at the top.

I thought this was adorable...he was kind of lounging against the glass, looking at me like "what?!"

Just trying out a close-up of his face...it's hard to get good pics during the weekdays when the sun is going down by the time I get home

Scoping out his rearranged tank

Morning stretches, as usual

Him looking *really* grumpy sitting in the sun on the back of our recliner. And I put his tail like that, lol

My husband took this :roll:

A rare shot of him actually eating his salad

Watching Glee with me!

He loves to explore the coffee table, not sure why

I did not put him like this, lol. I should have entered it in this months photo competition!

Him still being really mad from the vet's visit the night before. He looked so hilarious, all puffed up with the black beard. I started petting him and he deflated while managing to look confused.

Just looking cute. This was right around when he stopped eating about a month ago.

 

[JenFid]

Thanks so much Kelly. Tracie is sending me some allopurinol next week and I started giving Scully cherry juice tonight in case there is gout. No harm in trying and she really liked the cherry juice, heh. I did ask her to send me another swab for Daedalus so that I can test her. I feel there is a pretty good chance she is positive, as like you said they share a viv from time to time. Daedalus fortunately is healthy as a horse so even if she does turn out to be adeno positive I'm not worried about her.

Yes it is very weird what happened with her legs. She was getting along decently until she got that lump in her front arm about a month ago. And before her first egg batch she seemed perfectly healthy. Maybe a little overweight but she had no problems anywhere else. She ran around fine, ate fine, was just a happy active young dragon, which she still is, minus the running around part

Your post has given me some hope. That adeno article was a scarey read, but I know I can give her the care she needs going forward. I don't have human kids, Scully is my baby.

I know my vet doesn't want to euthanize...she has been really great. She just thinks Scully wouldn't do well with 3 missing legs. I think she'd be ok though. When I talk to her on Monday I'm going to see if I can get an appointment with her for Tuesday to redo blood tests and get an updated x-ray. Hopefully a joint tap for that front right leg too.

One thing she did mention was stopping the antibiotics...since it seems they're not helping at all. The only thing that does seem to help with her pain is the daily metacam and maybe the serrapeptase too. I'll ask her about it on Monday. We just don't know if they're stopping it from spreading further, but if I can take her off them and just do the natural stuff like serrapeptase and bee pollen and collioid silver, I'd much rather do that. Tracie thinks the pain might subside once the infection stops spreading. But that lump in her arm needs to be dealt with either way. But maybe she won't have to loose her limbs. So much to think about

 

[kcarello]

Yes, I truly hope they can figure out what is going on with her legs. It is good to be getting your other one tested. I have not heard of the allopurinol...but neither of mine have gout or any of the symptoms that your girl has. I would go with anything Tracie recommended that's for sure! Both of mine are doing awesome and I contribute that to all the help I have gotten from Tracie!
Hang in there with Scully! I know you love her and your other babies so much and it is so hard when one is not doing very well. Keep me posted on how she is doing please.
Take care

 

[sweetiepie9]

I'm so glad I talked to Amanda and she talked to Shelly, now you have some people who have adeno+ babies that might be able to help, along with your vet. I'm praying you'll find a way to get her leg issues straightened out and that if the worse has to happen (amputation) that will take care of the issue at tleast. And NO, I would not consider euthanasia at all, she's a healthy girl & there would be no reason for that. Take care, Jen, I'll be checking on Monday to see how the vet will react to the new news.

 

[dragonlover3]

Hi Jen,
This has probably already been thought of by your vet and he would be in the best position to assess but I'm just brain storming. I'm wondering about septic arthritis which effects joints, making them swell, and is very painful. It can spread to other joints. Even though she was on an antibiotic it may not have been effective on the particular cause. and white blood cell count can be within normal limits but it doesn't rule out septic arthritis. Other infections, such as those caused by viruses and fungi, can also cause septic arthritis. Adenovirus is on the list.

Then there's gout. I know people and reptiles are very different but a percentage of people have gout, and gout attacks yet elevated uric acid level may not be present during an acute attack. So I'm wondering if it's possible for dragons too. A vet would be able to answer that. Gout is needle like deposits of uric acid crystals called tophi in the joints. I was puzzled about the lumps you mentioned that were not at the joint and researched to see if it's possible for tophi to deposit other than in joints. I found tophi can deposit in cartilage, tendons and other soft tissue which could account for the lumps you found.

This is all info for people but it may apply. There is so much not known on our dragons.
Both gout and septic arthritis can cause painful joints, limited mobility with possibly some joint deformity. Drawing some fluid from a joint can help look for both.
Your vet may already have addressed these and ruled them out? I'd ask him/her about it.

I'm just thinking "out loud". I could be way off, and probably am.

As for amputee's being euthanized only because of amputations, that is not a reason to euthanize IMO. My Sage lost her left arm and leg when attacked by a tank mate before I rescued her. And my Pilot was also in a cohab situation before rescue and was attacked, loosing his left hand, left lower leg and foot and part of his tail. They are 2 of my 14 pampered dragon.

I hope any of this will help. My vet is great, we discuss everything.

 

[JenFid]

Hi Dragonlover,

Thanks for the suggestions - about a month ago my vet did draw fluid from the front right arm but did not find any tophi when she looked at it under a microscope. When I bring her back in hopefully on Tuesday I might have her do that again as well as re-check her blood to see if the UA has gone up at all from what it was back then.

I have heard of septic arthritis but I don't believe it's been discussed between us yet. I'll bring it up when I see her next for sure. Does it push the joints apart? That is what's basically happening with Scully. I'm going to do another x-ray so we can see if the joints have gotten any worse since November.

 

[dragonlover3]

Hi Jen,
That's great the vet didn't find tophi. I've not heard of septic arthritis pushing the joint apart, but there are many things I've not heard of. Since the vet already did an aspiration of fluid to check for tophi she probably checked for microbes. Was a culture sent?
Poor girl, I hope the cause is found soon! I'm happy to read your vet is prescribing meds for pain management. I'll be following your thread and praying for your sweet girl.
Amanda

 

[sweetiepie9]

Fingers crossed Jen, with your vet visit tomorrow, hopefully your vet comes up with a solution for Scully.

 

[firewoman]

Hi Dragonlover,

Thanks for the suggestions - about a month ago my vet did draw fluid from the front right arm but did not find any tophi when she looked at it under a microscope. When I bring her back in hopefully on Tuesday I might have her do that again as well as re-check her blood to see if the UA has gone up at all from what it was back then.

I have heard of septic arthritis but I don't believe it's been discussed between us yet. I'll bring it up when I see her next for sure. Does it push the joints apart? That is what's basically happening with Scully. I'm going to do another x-ray so we can see if the joints have gotten any worse since November.

Ty's back knee joint was also pulled far apart as shown on the original x-ray. I hope you and the vet are able to figure this out tomorrow. So frustrating to not know. Good luck tomorrow.

 

[JenFid]

Hi everyone,

Well I heard from my vet - she said she wrote a very detailed report on Scully's case and sent it out to some colleagues to get their opinions. Apparently she wants to see what strain of adeno this is. There is someone named Jim Wellehan from the university of Florida who does a lot of work with reptiles and adenovirus who she is hoping will weigh in.

So no appointment tomorrow, perhaps on Saturday depending on how quick people reply to her report. She asked how Scully was doing and I let her know she is still pretty much the same, with the back left foot looking a little better and the front right looking more swollen, and the back right unchanged. Plus no more black bearding.

She said she was honestly surprised Scully was not doing worse, she's pretty amazed at how resilient she's been through this whole ordeal.

Regarding her front right leg, she thinks that since it's getting puffier the infection is likely still in there. She said while that leg would be a good candidate for amputation, she's afraid Scully might get worse if we put her through surgery. But she said there's also a chance the other vets might recommend some exploratory surgery on that leg anyway. She did not want to stop the antibiotics in case one of them is what is keeping the infection in check.

Basically just another waiting game. Let's hope the other vets don't take too long to get back to her.

 

[sweetiepie9]

I hope they get back to her quickly so you can finally get more insight as to how to cure Scully. I'll be waiting to hear about your visit on Saturday. Good luck!

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jennifer,

Just checking in on your thread.
How are things going with Scully today?


I am glad that she likes the cherry juice though that will help her out. I am thinking about you both.


Tracie

 

[JenFid]

Hi Tracie, thanks for stopping by

Scully is fine this morning. I gave her meds and serrapeptase and cherry juice last so that she didn't have to end with the icky meds.

Hoping my vet has received some news back and will call me tomorrow for an update.

 

[JenFid]

Hi everyone, sorry it's been awhile since I've updated. There just hasn't been much of anything new to report until today.

I brought Scully in to my vet on the 13th. It'd been awhile since she'd seen her and I wanted a fresh blood test.

We had quite a bit to talk about. The vet is pretty upset, she's sure that the trembling Scully has in her limbs is due to pain and not anything calcium related. I've been out of the metacam for about a week and her pain level is better when she's on that, so I got it refilled. She mentioned wanting to try morphine and seeing how she responds to it, but wants me to bring her in overnight since it apparently has a chance to make them stop breathing @_@ I'm on the fence about it but I am also concerned about the amount of pain she could be in currently

Her back left leg has also gotten worse - on that leg it used to only be in the ankle area but it has spread to the knee now.

The vet did taps on all 3 joints and was able to get fluid out of each one. She did look at them under the microscope and still no crystals that might be from gout (I did ask her to re-check). She did mention that there seem to be gram-positive bacteria in there now, when last time she did it there was only gram-negative. There is less gram-negative now, so she thinks that might mean the injection antibiotic is doing it's job on those. She was going to do some research and see if there's anything she can prescribe for the gram-positive.

We made the decision to have a fresh fecal sample (which Scully kindly provided while we were talking) sent off to Florida for sequencing to see exactly what strain of adeno Scully has. She said as long as it's not one with something like a high mortality rate, we can move forward and probably do surgery on Scully's front right arm. They overnighted that so it would have got there on Tuesday - the vet isn't sure exactly on the timeframe it takes to get those results back.

I heard back about her bloodwork last night - it's basically what they expect to see from chronic bacterial infection and chronic inflammation. She is hypercalcemic. Her calcium levels were off the charts, she had a 60.8 when the normal range is 9-17. However her UA level is back to normal with a 2.7 in a range of 1.8-4.

This was all in a voicemail just fyi, since I wasn't around and missed the call. I had one of the techs e-mail me the results.

The vet said to stop calcium supplements, and the hypercalcemia is likely due to the inflammation. We're going to start a new antibiotic called azithromycin this weekend.

So now we basically wait to see what they find out about the adeno strain that Scully has. The vet thinks it's possible it's not the typical one they tend to see in beardies since she didn't have those elevated liver enzymes. Whatever it turns out to be I hope it's not one with a high mortality rate, as the vet said if it was (although she didn't think it would be) she would not do any kind of surgery.

Scully is still doing fine overall. She is still eating, and I've upped her baths to once a day. When the vet brought her back from doing the joint taps, she said it was very painful for Scully and that her beard had blackened. But as soon as she gave her back to me the black beard went away entirely, lol. The vet said she'd never seen that happen before. I guess Scully really likes me

If anyone is interested in seeing her most recent bloodwork just let me know and I'll forward it to you.

 

[sweetiepie9]

Hopefully, Jen, this all means she's starting to recover. Please keep me informed of the results for the adeno. And the vet thinks it's necessary for surgery? If you want to send me the blood results, that would be great, just PM me. I've read the results for Leo (luckily, he was ok, liver enzyme on the high end so he got put onto roaches instead of supers and that seemed to work, he's bromating now). It's always difficult when your baby is so sick and it's not a simple thing to get her well, so I'm sending lots of prayers and strength your way & big hugs for Scully. Guess this means you have to keep the girls separated now. Did you have the test for adeno done on Daeds? Did you get the results back yet?

I've been thinking of you both & hoping for a more positive result from her tests with the vet. And yes, she loves you, that's why her black beard disappeared when you took her back from the vet

Keep me posted, k?

 

[JenFid]

Thanks Deb - I'll send the blood tests over to you.

I have the adeno test for Daeds but she has yet to relinquish any poo for me! Once she does I'll send it back to Tracie straight away.
I do have the girls out together still but just no tank/food sharing.

I've always felt a special connection with Scully, more so than with any other animal I've ever owned, from cats to dogs to horses to snakes. She trusts me implicitly to take care of her - to make sure she doesn't sink in the bath, to hold on to her when she's on my shoulder. When I feed her she looks for my finger and makes sure she doesn't bite it. I'm always very careful when I handle her now because I don't want to cause any unnecessary pain, but I could probably hold her by her tail and she wouldn't struggle :roll:

Also on the positive Sarth seems to be fully out of his brumation He's been eagerly eating his collards every day. He still turns his nose up at roaches of course, but he was more than willing to wake up and eat the horn worm I offered him few minutes ago :roll:

I will post here as soon as I hear from the vet about her adeno strain results. Fingers crossed!