Rex's Savannah monitor thread!

[Monkey]

Well I figured Id do some updates here and post further info cause there was a lot of garbage to go through online.. I had a got a lot of wrong info and have been on trial and error the last week. I had the wrong shape of enclosure, wrong substrate (or too little of it), wrong interior and then some. So I am posting three pictures to show what my enclosure was and went to and I will post new ones of the RIGHT one this weekend. I get it on friday I can't wait!

Heres the pictures, first one.
I figured he'd like to climb to keep active, did NOT figure out that he'd be too cold to manage that in the morning. Despite the info I found Savannah likes to climb its not as common and not like beardies at all. But before I found that out I figured to make the climb easier.

So here's version number 2. With a cute Savannah on top.

and here is the final version of the one I have now, the reason it's getting changed and that it FINALLY was someone who explained the physics about this is, 1. screen top lets out humidity (well that I knew I had mine covered and I am gonna have a wodden one custom made for this new one).
2. Height is enemy of humidity AND heat, it needs to be lower and wider/longer. 3. it still has to be high enough to have a good amount of digging dirt, cause dirt helps to hold the humidity level better and they like to burrow, and it gives them a way to hydrate as well as adjust temperature.
4. They kinda like getting cooked, the hotest spot in my viv is right now 135F and guess where Rex is at, I would estimate that the spot he is on which is an inch lower is at least 120 he's BAKING but he loves it. he runs around like a little maniac, been eating crickets and having fun trying to break out like a healthy monitor. 5. it helps to have the basking bulb inside for humidity levels as well as the heat level. in my new one I will do a netcage in the cover so I can have it about half an inch lower or so for the right temp modification. Not anywhere did I find this information accumulated in an EASY written way, I found parts of it but noone explained it properly and for me with english as a second language I was a bit thrown off and that together with the wrong info it could of been a disaster. Thank god some varanid owners smacked me in the head

not that fun looking but ah well it serves it's purpouse!
Here I will post about future issues, struggles, and conclusion so other varanid noobs can take use of MY mistakes.
Oh and a behavioral pointer. IF you baby Savannah seems tame when you approach the cage and don't run away, chances are you have it too cold for him/her. Mine has since I got everything right turned into the shy Savannah I read about. Only reason he tolerated handling when being in his viv was cause he was too cold to run away. That is one of the first give aways.

 

[isdrake]

God he is so cute.

Getting something more advanced really make you realize how easy it is to care for bearded dragons huh? No wonder they are considered good for beginners. XD

I'm glad you managed to find better information. I wonder how expensive it is to keep the heat up in a large enclosure for an adult Savannah. :O

 

[Monkey]

Once I do the math Ill let you know *lol* if I get strong enough lamps in two places I think that will be enough so I have a bigger basking spot for him. I think that will help to keep the rest hot as well. Worst case Ill tuck him in bed with me under my blanket I like it just as hot as he does

 

[Grimleo]

I really can't wait to see the progress you and Rex will make. I can't wait to see him grow and see new pics and even learn more about savannahs Making this thread is a good idea and it should be fun Thanks and much luck to you and your new baby

 

[Monkey]

Poop success!!!! It is so funny how poop can make you happy. I am rather sure he has not pooped before, unless the cricks ate it. This cause his temps has been too low. However, today, he was running a bit more, he soaked in the water for a few then he jumped up, and I see his tail go straight up in the air. First I was oh no what is happening now.. and then I saw him strain and I was AHA!! I ran over and I took the poop up and examined it closely. It was very moist (YAY no more humidity issues), the urate was nice not too hard, just firm, his little poop was nice and sausage shape I was soooo happy!

It's funny how poop can make you smile I swear to God. Well for anyone that ever gets a sav, even if you THINK your viv is too hot, if the sav is "too relaxed" HEAT HEAT and more HEAT. He loves to fry himself. if he was human he would have skincancer in a heartbeat. The heat is their everything.

 

[Monkey]

Oh yeah, he is a full on Savannah, he was kept too cold in the petstore, and he was too cold the first couple of days here. That is now a fact. I figured I'd try to socialize a little. He whipped me with his 2 inch tail, hissed and blew himself up when I got too close. So what I did was I brought a worm out, put it on my fingertip and moved very slowly closer. He stopped whipping and hissing, he was looking and he smelt me with his tongue a little. He didn't take it but he calmed down, I left the worm and slowly moved away from him to make sure that I ended it on a good note. I am a bit sad that he isnt the happy reptile he seemed to be, but on the other hand his behavior is WAY more healthy and is what it is supposed to be which shows that the husbandry he has now is what he needs or he wouldnt have the energy or the spunk to "fight" me. So I am satisfied to see him being healthy, it will be a while before I can full on train him I guess.

 

[Monkey]

I am so tired I posted this one in the wrong thread...

well we have had another poop, I think he likes the new enclosure, the first thing he did was to go pop. I cleaned it out emidately I have heard that if you keep the spot clean that they go back and use the same one. I hope that is the case cause in that case Ill put a little sandbox there as a litter box so I can keep it clean. He is starting to come around, at first when I have been in the room he has run and hid in his cave, this afternoon I could actually stand up and just be 4 feet away fro the cage and he didn't run away from his little tree house which is a first. When I got to close he jumped down and ran towards the backend, but he didn't run and hide. He kept an eye on me though but that is ok.

Due to that I havent got a good feeding schedule with him yet (he gets scared when I open the viv) which means that the freshly dusted crickets arent so freshly dusted once he eats them made me worried about calcium intake as well as uptake. I have the UVB on so even if he now in the beginning dont get enough D3 vitamin, he can still process it and here's the funny part, he has now chosen to go and lay down and bask UNDER the UVB part instead of the hot bulb. I'd guess its about 95 where he's right now judging of all the different meassurements I have been taking.

I am trying to keep track of his preferences where the hottest part of the cage read 118, I am contemplating upping to 125 so I can reach like a 125 in the hottest part, but he seems to be fine now. He was hunting earlier and had a bunch of crickets and I know that when he's too cold he is not doing that. But he's very active, nice poops, eating, drinking, he even took a little soak in his tub before. The saying is true, heat them and feed them. He's peeking at me, I wonder what he's thinking... oh and I found out, he's wildcaught or his mother was and he's captive born. Once he settles in more in a couple of weeks I am gonna take his poo for fecal test to ensure he don't have nothing bad.

here's some more pictures of my little sneak a poo.

 

[Monkey]

I have to say, monitors ARE smart, its not much they are missing. I can see why force handling of them can make them aggressive. He pays attention to everything. He's very alert and responsive, I just woke up and I turned the lights on, when I came back from the bathroom he was out and checking everything out then he climbed up and started basking. His hearing is amazing, I can see why clicker training work on these guys. Every morning the first few times when I start typing he looks up to see what I am doing. If he sees me looking at him he will just sit there and stare back. he's still trying to decide wether I have plans on eating him or not. I have no doubt though that he will become rather calm later on, it's amazing to see him like this though, and how he looks at me when I am moving, he is so aware and you can tell it clearly from his behaviors. I can see why they are so sensitive though despite being such a robust lizard, too much of the wrong diet, not enough heat and light is likely causing long term damages in these guys and that is why it's such a low survival rate. people underestimate how hot they like it, and if they dont use a probe but a sticker that only goes to 90 degrees they might think it's enough. Long term lack of nutrients will cause issues with the physical development. What I FIND funny is, that when he basks he goes to the area that contains both a 100 W bulb and the UVB. Now people tell me that they don't need it, so why is he always seeking that out at least twice a day. I will keep the uv light as a back up, I am gutloading his crickets so they contain calcium and vitamin D since he don't always eat them the first thing he does when I throw them in there. This so he can be without the UVB too, awww he is so nosey, he just now stuck his head between two logs and stuck out his tongue in between them. I love him so much. He is the cutest little thing.

 

[Monkey]

Well it's been 19 days and I have not killed him yet *knock wood*
He is eating and growing like a little weed. he has grown about an inch, I am trying to find a growth chart but havent, however, I found this video:
and he's about 8 months old!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i0KVMqNqOo

yeah that should give me an estimation, he's in shed right now and is a plump little guy eating about 10-15 crickets a day, spread out, he always have access to them basically. I found him sitting like this this morning:

 

[Monkey]

AHA you little sneak!

So I got dressed for work, went downstairs to fix myself up, I come up and I see someone running t his hiding area with a cricket in his mouth looking all guilty. I guess he don't feel safe chasing in the more open area yet when I move around. Hopefully that will come at some point. It was just so cute, he looked so guilty.. God I love my little Rex..

 

[Monkey]

well its been a while since I updated this one, Rex is in shed again, basically he finishes one and starts the next. His appetite is good, and I know people say feed them as much as they want, personally I do not belive in this. I read about SO many sav's dying cause of overfeeding and fatty liver that I keep mine very very slender. The base of his tail is fat and full (that is the sav's reserve) other than that he's a slender guy but not skinny if that makes sence. I have kept my dog slender too and she's 9.5 without any serious issues but two surgeries for low grade tumors (knock wood) so I belive in slender esp after all the issues I have read about sav's dying rather sooner than later.

So far he's been living on crickets and waxworms. Today its been raining, and we have a nice backyard, a very wild non taken care of. We dont use no pesticides or fertilisers, its totally untouched but thus clean. Today I picked snails, and tomorrow Im gonna go digging for worms to let loose in his tank. He hasn't eaten the snails yet, but I think they will be good for him as well as the worms. He will get to dig and forage for real instead and find stuff. I hope with this to encourage more natural behavior.

Since these are recomended to not force handle, I have left him alone, sometimes he comes and look at me when I am doing stuff in the cage, he dont really hide no more, he jst sits and look at me. Unless I do major cleaning then he will run into his hide but Il leave him alone. He did touch my hand the other day without freaking out, it was an accident but he was ok with it. He was glass dancing and I had my hand just still next to him, three weks ago that would have made him hide but this time he didn't bother. He seems to be developing nice but I don't know for sure yet to be honest.

I can only try as much as I can.

 

[Monkey]

Well Rex is growing and doing well. He eats more and more but I do hold back as how much he's allowed. A lot of people say just feed them as much as possible but I do not belive in that. In the wild that wouldn't be the case, I leave a few crickets in there that he can hunt, the hunting is good exercise for him. I keep the tail base fat, that is my guide line, but the rest of my baby I am keeping slender. A friend of mine that had one in similar size feed his a pinkie, that poor little fella is not with us no more, he got impaction and died. This is even more so keeping me on the line of sticking to none vertibrae, I am doing more and more research on substitutes for big african savannah insects and I am starting to get somewhere. People say to worry about parasites, I don't know, if the stomach acid is so high as they say I think most of them will perish in there esp since they at times eat rotten worm infested meat when they come across it.

He is getting more relaxed and self secure though, he will let me pet him a little bit, he will flatten out some, but he don't whip me with his tail, he don't pretend to be dead, and he will look at me. I usually just pet him once or twice as I don't want to overdo it and break his trust. Sometimes when I open the cage he will climb up on his log for the cricket rain. I have also raised his substrate level so he has almost one foot to dig around in, he loves it. I need to add more sand though so he can burrow more.

 

[Floof]

He is so cute!!! Do you know if adults are difficult to handle? I hope to someday have a Sav of my own, but wouldn't want something too big, unruly, or dangerous to handle on my own. I'd appreciate if you could shed some light on the subject. =)

Your post is incredibly informative, thank you for that. I would never have guessed Savs require such incredibly high heat! There's one thing that bothers me about what you've said in the thread, though...

What I FIND funny is, that when he basks he goes to the area that contains both a 100 W bulb and the UVB. Now people tell me that they don't need it, so why is he always seeking that out at least twice a day.

Aren't Savannahs diurnal? I thought any diurnal basking lizard needed UVB. As well, "heat" and "high UV index" seem to go hand-in-hand, so I have to wonder why an educated reptile keeper would believe Savannah monitors don't need UVB. I'd hazard a guess that your observations, witnessing your little Sav basking beneath the UVB in lieu of the hottest basking area, is more accurate than what you've been told concerning their UVB needs. It certainly wouldn't hurt, anyway, to give your Savannah access to UVB the likes of which you would provide your Dragon. Just my $.02 on the subject... =)

Good luck with your Savannah, and keep us updated!!!

 

[Monkey]

I don't know why people say they don't need it, I agree with you on the fact that it seems more plausible that they actually DO need it. And I rather do the safe than sorry. I am as well surprised over the heat levels, but I think it's the fact that we often have it colder in average so a high heat spot is good so they can truly regulate as it often goes too cold for him in the cool end very easily. So I think that has more with regulation to do than anything, most of the time after done warming up he hangs out on the spot that is around 85 degrees which is the recommended temperature in average for them. But he uses the hot one when he has eaten a big meal. I would suspect a lot of them die due to insufficient heat and hardship of digestion. Esp since a lot of people often feed vertebrae animals that really shouldn't be a part of their diet. The hotter it is, the better they digest and when given a large prey with high content I suspect they have to have the higher heat to be able to handle it. So I think that is probably a big reason to why they die due to so much mixed information. People read: oh they don't need that hot (not all places tell you that they do), and then they read: oh I can feed pinkies to make them big and fat. Or they read: they don't need UVB, ok, and then feed them vitamin without the D3 which is needed if they don't use the UVB otherwise you get the MBD as a letter in the mail. I have heard of many lizards keepers saying that they have raised savannahs without UVB but the wholesome prey method is making up for it. On the other hand, you don't hear about many savs living a long life (most people say they die before one of age and tell me mine will too cause it just how it works). So I am suspecting lack of UVB is effecting other things development as well and it's a hit and miss and there is something else making up for it like maybe the high heat. None the less there is NO exact info, there is a lot of guesswork.

Here is a good link that I read;
http://savannahmonitor.org/health/uvb/
Most people choose to feed the D3, I have that as well in his diet due to not feeding the whole prey thing to make sure he gets enough.
As is why I also stick to the UVB in case he don't take enough up as the crickets quickly cleans themselves of it sometimes before he even gets to them. Most people feed the whole prey item, rodents and such though, which is likely why they make it without UVb, and then again some people might only feed the insects and not give UVB (cause again of cross missinformation) and then we have another dead sav.+

People tell me, don't feed him slugs, they can contain parasites, well Ill freeze them and then feed them, I rather feed him big slugs than risk giving him pinkies and such.Most monitors have a very high acid content in their bellies, for some reason I think that his body will cope with parasites better than the straight out wrong food overall anyhow.

About their temper as an adult, I can't say anything. I know the most common recomendation is to not handle them until they come to you, that I can agree on and belive in. That goes for everything that I have learned with animals and positive reinforcement. Rex will let me pet him now, he will flatten out, but he does not bolt, hiss, nor whip his tail. If I pet too long he will bolt, so I do it short and sweet. As they grow older they usually turn curious of us and will come to us. there is several good threads on how to tame them, the man who did them on youtube just lost his despite he kept them thin to fatty liver but he was feeding them rodents as well despite a variety of food and as little rodents as possible from what I understood it STILL died of fatty liver. So I will be sticking to bugs. I think mine will become a smaller savannah the wild ones grows to like 3 feet, in captivity (cause of abundance of food I would say) they grow to four and more. Which makes me feel that we basically put them on steriouds and it cant be healthy and wouldn't surprise me if that is a part of why they die. I even starve my young sav a few days every week. I make sure the bottom part of his tail his normal thick and healthy, but other than that, I will def leave him without food for 3-4 days.

I know I have a chance of 80% to 90% of him dying before year one, so if I follow mainstreams suggestion I feel like I take a bigger risk that he's dying. I am doing an experiment and it's his life in the balance. Which honestly sucks, I love him to pieces and I want nothing more than for him to grow to a big nice sweet savannah. So I will follow a more natural environmental food chain and I am working on finding substitutes of large none vertebrae food for him that is legal here. If I succeed to keep him over 5 years, I know I have done something right. And can probably revolutionize how people look at how to keep the husbandry.

Oh and back to the temperament, it can be a hit of miss with the Savannah, since most are wild caught or just captive born, there's no lines, no temperament or anything else to go by. So some of them never get tame, some get tame quickly, but they usually stop fearing us as adults as long as we don't force handle them as younglings and feed them a lot of food and use that as positive reinforcement. I am planning a viv though where if he don't like to be handled I can still let him in and out as needed for exercise. But I will def keep working on taming him, I think I have a good one. Cause he's getting around. If I move to quick he will bolt but thats a natural survival instinct as long as I move slow and steady he's ok with it. A few times when Im gonna let food in he has even come up to look at what Im doing.

 

[Floof]

Thanks for all the information! It's certainly a lot to think about. That link is interesting, as well, and definitely clears up some of the confusion. It's curious that Monitor keepers haven't considered using others' experiences with other diurnal lizards (i.e. our BDs) to determine which path may truly be the most beneficial... Though maybe that's just my mindset, as a bearded dragon keeper accustomed to the necessity of UVB...

On the note of prey items, have you looked into large tropical roaches? The only ones I'm really aware of are Blaptica Dubia roaches, which only reach about 2" as adults, but I know there are larger options that would probably make for excellent Sav food.

In any case, it'll be a while yet before I get a Sav of my own... I'll be looking forward to the fantastic care sheet you will have developed by then! Best of luck with Rex, and I look forward to reading about your further experiences with him. =)