Reptisun 10.0, lethargy and closed eyes

[AtlasStrike]

Hey,

So I post quite a bit about Charlie, and he has been doing pretty well- a little semi brumation, eating a little on and off, but with steady weight gain and generally being a frustrating baby. But, I've been putting some things together in my head and I wanted to check in.

Right now, Charlie is housed in a 36x18x18 exo terra viv (my Valentine's day present from the fiance 8) ) Charlie had been asleep in his old 55 gallon for a couple of days before I moved him, and the move seems to have jolted his system into activity, and today he actually came out of his hide by himself before noon!!

Anyway, to start at the beginning, in January we came back from vacation, he finished his deworming meds and got a clean bill of health. He also got a 24" reptisun 10. Since then he has been in the brumation stage, like I said gaining weight still, but inactive and grumpy when disturbed. When he is awake though, his eyes are closed a lot, and he stays on the cool side of the viv, or in the shade as much as possible. In his new viv, the UVB is mounted directly overhead (nothing between him and the bulb, 8 inches from the basking spot) with bright the bright basking lights right beside it. Temps are good, 98 basking (he doesn't like it hotter, I've tried), around 84 cool side, dropping to the high 60's low 70's at night, but he still closes his eyes, even when he is out and about.

I was curious today, so I turned his UVB off while he was up, and his eyes stayed open much more, and he seemed more active and certainly more reactive/aware of me and my activities. I would say maybe his eyes just need a break, but he has been sleeping so much, that I doubt that is the problem.

I know some one is going to ask about feeding, so I'll just say he gets good salads with lots of variety, turnip, collard, dandelion, kale, mustard, bok choy, squash, red and yellow pepper...and he gets feeders if he is awake- mostly supers dusted with calcium because the brat won't eat anything else. Occasionally I can trick him into eating a roach by giving him supers with the tongs and then offering a dubia nymph. I tried hornworms recently, but he doesn't like them much, and they gave him horrible diarrhea, which he hasn't quite recovered from. Since he is only eating supers and picking at his salad, he gets repcal with D3 on most of his feeders and RepAshy calcium plus a few times a week to keep the Ca ratio in balance.

Here are some pictures:

Thanks in advance!!!

 

[Claudiusx]

Are the bulbs you are using coils or incandescents/halogens?

-Brandon

 

[HuckWeb]

Good question! My big guy is in what I like to think of as 'semi-brumation'. He spends alot of time flopped out snoozing in either his hammock or on the slate floor in his viv. He will rotate to his basking platform but usually he would rather flop out. His temps and appetite are good, eating is never a hardship w/ my babies I notice that you are also in the north east. Could it poss be like a winter blues situation, kind of like what people go through?

 

[AtlasStrike]

@ Brandon- the basking bulb is a bright white incandescent. I've been thinking about adding some full spectrum florescents just to brighten things up a bit, the backround, carpet and white light through the screen makes everything look very yellow/orange, but this eye thing was happening before the viv change, and there was no screen in his last viv.

@HuckWeb- He definitely has been semi-brumating, and that is fine. But, there is also something else that is bothering him, and I just don't know what it is.

 

[ShannyBeard]

@ Brandon- the basking bulb is a bright white incandescent. I've been thinking about adding some full spectrum florescents just to brighten things up a bit, the backround, carpet and white light through the screen makes everything look very yellow/orange, but this eye thing was happening before the viv change, and there was no screen in his last viv.

Bearded dragons see the light spectrum differently than we do, so the 'yellow' hue that you are seeing is the correct hue for their eyes. If you change the bulbs to what we call a 'full spectrum' they will have a blue hue and it will seem darker to the dragon, as the blue hue simulates late afternoon to sunset in reptiles. These 'full spectrum' lights have a Neodymium coating and that is what adds the blue and cancels out the yellow. These bulbs are to be avoided for bearded dragons. Keep the 'yellow' or regular uncoated household bulbs in his viv for him.

 

[AtlasStrike]

I understand the spectrum that they see, but I have heard that "daylight" bulbs bring out their color and provide more natural looking visual light. I haven't heard anything negative about using daylight bulbs in addition to bright white basking bulbs. Something has to change, so if not that, then what?

 

[ShannyBeard]

I understand the spectrum that they see, but I have heard that "daylight" bulbs bring out their color and provide more natural looking visual light. I haven't heard anything negative about using daylight bulbs in addition to bright white basking bulbs. Something has to change, so if not that, then what?

You had said "full spectrum flourescents" so I wanted to let you know what a full spectrum flourescent bulb is and why it is not recommended for reptiles. If the 'daylight' bulb that you are considering has a blue hue, or a Neodymium coating to reduce yellow, then it is not good for a bearded dragon. Make sure the bulb you choose has a Kelvin reading of 6500 or higher. This would approximate the sun intensity in the desert around noon, which is what we are wanting to simulate. The full spectrum bulbs have an average 2800K reading and that is inadequate for your dragon to see the correct lighting. If you can find a reptile bulb that is full spectrum that has a Kelvin reading of 6500 or higher, then that would be a good bulb. When I was researching my own lighting I couldn't find a household bulb to fit that requirement. If you find one, let me know as I would be interested in it!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

He is such a beautiful boy, very handsome.
I agree, the full spectrum or daylight bulbs are deceptive with their advertising. They work great for people supposedly, but our eyes do not "see" the color spectrum like reptiles. Most if not all of the bulbs are coated with neodymium, which basically makes the colors appear to "pop" or disappear to them blocking out the yellow hues that they need which is very close to the natural sunlight. They market these bulbs in this manner to claim a higher CRI or color rendering index for brightness. However, it doesn't appear brighter to them because the coating doesn't really manifest an improved CRI reading.

So I would use either a bright white household light bulb or a lower wattage halogen, anywhere from a 50-90 watt depending on the distance of your basking & the size of the tank. That is most likely why he has been squinting on & off as the brightness is not quite enough for him with the Reptisun 10 tube bulb being at that proximity.

How is his appetite, decreased right now?

Tracie

 

[Drache613]

Moved by Moderator from Health to Enclosures

 

[AtlasStrike]

Right now the basking lights are bright white incandescent bulbs, I was thinking of adding more florescent lighting, so my temperatures don't change.

He is still squinting and closing his eyes a lot. Yesterday and today I turned the reptisun off for a few hours, during which time he was active- basking and eating a little.

His appetite has been okay on and off, but not "good" since mid December. He is eating a few bites of salad every other day or so and as many as 10, but often only 2-3 supers a day. I offer at least twice, unless he is actually asleep in his hide. I am trying to get him swiched over to dubia, but he doesn't seem enthusiastic about that at all.

 

[BadCon]

A few of the posts in this thread aren't all that clear, so here is my simplified version.

Blue coated bulbs of any type should be avoided. This is well known in the reptile trade. The reasons have already been covered in above posts.

Daylight simulating fluorescent tubes/coils with a color temperature above 5000k are perfectly fine for reptile use. Actually, for sun loving reptiles like bearded dragons, they are recommended. 5000k-6500k roughly simulates late morning and early afternoon sunshine, which is approximately the time a bearded dragon would be basking, and hence this spectrum of light is ideal for use in our enclosures. These "daylight" type bulbs increase activity and appetite, and improve coloration, and make it easier for your dragon to see. The most important facet of bearded dragon housing is a bright enclosure...the brighter the better. Their eyes are completely adapted to living in a bright arid environment, and they see rather poorly in the average light level inside our homes. Additionally bright lighting will reduce the instances of your dragon looking up at the UV-B bulb, which will improve their eye health in the long run. Its best to place a bright secondary source of light as close as possible to your UV-B source for this reason...you don't want your dragon looking into the UV-B tube.

Bulbs with a color temperature above 6500k will be hard to find in typical consumer locations. The aquarium trade would likely be your best bet, however I personally don't recommend any bulb with a color temperature rating above 6500 kelvin. Anything higher then 6500k is an approximation of the extreme...meaning 6500k is about what you'd get at noon on a clear day, and anything higher is too intense for constant exposure. Remember, reptiles seek shelter in the afternoon when the sun is at its most intense.
The ideal enclosure would have a nice assortment of bulbs, including standard incandescent bulbs (which approximate early morning and late evening sunshine), a daylight simulating fluorescent around 5000-6500k, and of course a UV source. Halogen bulbs are typically around 3500-4000k, which is a good approximation of morning sunlight, making them great to use as well.

A little digging will turn up a more accurate chart, but here is a quick guide to color temperature.

1k and 2k - pointless to reference
2500k-3500k: Good approximation of early morning and late evening sunlight.
3500k-4500k: Good approximation of morning/late morning sunlight (Start of bearded dragon basking time)
4500k-5500k: Good approximation of late morning/early afternoon sunlight (Bearded dragon basking time)
5500k-6500k: Good approximation of sunlight at noon, with 6500k being a good approximation for sunlight on a clear day at noon. (End of bearded dragon basking time)
On your typical day, things end here, however in extreme locations such as high altitude with snow covered ground, or other known sun hot-spots, color temperatures can far exceed 6500k. But these are the extremes, and do not approximate sun on a day to day basis in most locations on earth. With all that said, I feel comfortable saying that 6500k is about as intense as you want to go when creating a reptile enclosure...I just don't see the point of anything more extreme.

 

[AtlasStrike]

BadCon, thank you for clarifying. I was looking at the 6500k "full spectrum daylight" florescent like this: http://www.lampsplus.com/products/26-watt-daylight-6500k-cfl-twist-energy-star-light-bulb__35256.html

Should I add some brighter lights, then? He seems to be doing better with the UVB off for 2-3 hours a day.

He measured just over 17 inches last night and ate 9 supers and some salad this morning!!

 

[Claudiusx]

Coils are generally bad.

-Brandon

 

[ShannyBeard]

BadCon, thank you for clarifying. I was looking at the 6500k "full spectrum daylight" florescent like this: http://www.lampsplus.com/products/26-watt-daylight-6500k-cfl-twist-energy-star-light-bulb__35256.html

Should I add some brighter lights, then? He seems to be doing better with the UVB off for 2-3 hours a day.

He measured just over 17 inches last night and ate 9 supers and some salad this morning!!

The description of the light says "light that's more like the crisp light of daylight and not yellowy." So it's filtering out the yellow, which to our eyes looks more natural but not to the reptiles. I wouldn't use that bulb. The function of the daylight bulbs is to increase the blue hue and reduce the yellow, and it is not designed for reptile lighting.

 

[BadCon]

Coils are generally bad.

-Brandon

Coil UV-B bulbs are bad...the coil he linked is not a UV source, instead is just a household fluorescent. It is perfectly safe to use.