Raising healthy beardies w/ no UV light & no basking light??

[Zaxtor99]

So I went to a guys house today to buy a few adult dubia roaches off him to start my own colony to start breeding them myself, as buying live feeders at the pet stores is already getting costly.

So I go inside his home, and he has two adult beardies he says he has had since they were babies in a big long glass tank with no lid. He has no UV light, no basking lights, in fact he has no lights of any kind on the tank. Just room temperature, maybe 72 F in his home, and a cold snowy day outside.

I asked him why he didn't have any of the lights and stuff for his beardies, and he laughed and said that all the lights and heat and stuff are basically the biggest pet store scam in the book and that beardies don't need all that "crap". He said his beardies are 1 year old and 5 years old and really healthy and happy. I couldn't argue with him taking a look at them and even leaning over to pet his biggest one. They both looked very alert and healthy from what I could tell.

He went on to tell me that bearded dragons are very hardy and the easiest lizards in the world to raise as pets.

Now, I am only a week old with my first ever reptile of any kind, and that being a new baby beardie I just bought last weekend. And I am also in no way thinking of copying his ways of raising his beardies, assuming that with proper heat and an environment that is set up that more closely resembles what they would have in the wild - that they will live healthier and longer. But I have to admit, seeing this today shocked me a great deal and I was pretty surprised that here I had spent over $200 buying everything I need for my new beardie and taking lights back to the store to exchange them for better suiting lights etc - and then here this guy is raising two adult happy, healthy beardies with nothing but a tank.

I dunno, I was just curious what you all think of this.

Furthermore, I want to ask you all if you would consider this animal neglect or even abuse perhaps? Now not feeding an animal you own could certainly be considered neglect or abuse, but what about not providing it it's needed UV lighting and heat it needs to stay healthy? - I am certainly not going to report this guy or anything like that, I was just more curious what you all think of this? And how would you argue with him when he has living proof right there that his beardies haven't needed all that stuff and that selling you UV lights, basking lights etc is just a "scam to maximize profits" ?

This should be an interesting discussion. However I do ask that everyone remain professional here and try and avoid insults or name calling etc of anyone who has an opinion which may differ from your own. I am new to these forums myself, but have seen many forums over the years where people can get in some pretty heated debates, and I am pretty sure that could happen easy as well when it comes to talking about one's own pet and how it is raised and cared for.

Thank you.

 

[Claudiusx]

It is physiologically impossible for those dragons to be healthy under those living conditions, especially if it's been a long period of time.

Lighting and heat are the number 1 key factor in raising a bearded dragon. They are like the engine to a car. If you have an engine, everything will start working as it should. Without an engine, you might be able to get by and push the car around, but it's not functioning how it should. Get it?

I have heard of no uvb before, but I am utterly shocked at the lack of heating. Especially seeing as dragons are cold blooded, and can not produce their own heat. The simple fact that their metabolism never can get up to what it means most likely means the only reason they are surviving is because their body isn't doing anything. It is kind of just 'there.'

Either way, these dragons aren't living, they aren't thriving, they are surviving. Fighting to survive that is.

He is right about one thing though, dragons are very hardy creatures..
But then again, just because my cellphone says it can survive a 3 foot drop, doesn't mean i'm going to be testing its limits on a daily basis...

-Brandon

 

[Zaxtor99]

Yes, I agree with your post 100% Brandon. I know that even as a new beardie owner, I was quite shocked to see them living like that. I even asked him if he was using heat pads under the cage, but he said no and that his house was fine. He had the tank just sat down in the middle of the room randomly and it was just sitting on the carpeted floor. It was bizarre indeed. Like I said, what was more surprising to me was that both of his beardies were grown and one supposedly was five years old and both looked perfectly healthy and alert. But like you say, maybe they were really just "surviving" rather them being at peak health.

Sigh.

So I wanna ask you... Would you consider this "animal neglect"? And knowing what you know, if you had been me in his home, buying a few adult dubias, what might you have said to him about seeing what I saw? Would seeing that angered you at all? I'm just curious, because it kinda is like seeing someone putting animals health at risk right? Hehe.

Another thing I noticed was he was raising his dubia roaches the same way, I mean he had them all in a colored plastic tote box and egg cartons inside as well as a cut up orange, but he had no heaters or anything else to keep them warmer, and he was obviously successfully breeding them as he had tons of babies swarming inside the egg cartons.

I got his roaches and put mine in a similar box but drilled air holes in the top of my lid (he had no ventilation of any kind in his box), and I put my box in my home as well, but have a heater on low a few feet away from the box to keep the internal temp of the box at about 85-90F.

 

[sleestak]

Good topic Zax-

Absence of UVB could potentially be compensated for with diet, although food high in vitamin D are not typically fed to beardies (salmon, sardines, cow milk, eggs, etc...). I have read claims of multiple generations of healthy skinks raised without UVB raised on these foods. Beardies may be a different story as they seem to have high UVB requirement. Some studies suggest vitamin D supplements don't prevent disease in beardies, but I don't know if the Vitamin was synthetic or from natural food sources. Evidence of poor health with lack of UVB is abundant with countless cases of MBD and other effects. I would not chance it with my pet, but it's an interesting research topic.

 

[dom1959]

"It is physiologically impossible for those dragons to be healthy under those living conditions, especially if it's been a long period of time."
don't be offended but the above statement is not smart.
there is a general way that is "standard", but i know there is a very respected
chameleon keeper that does it all with diet so it prolly can be done with beardies as well. i know the cham keeper is now experimenting with lighting, go figure...

 

[bunnyrut]

I would say it is possible for them to thrive in that set up if they were taken outside everyday for natural sunlight to compensate for not having access to UVB.
Your dog can survive in a small cage without much room to move or ever going outside to relieve itself. but is that really the best way to keep it?

has he raised those beardies since they were babies? or is it possible that he recently acquired them at that age?

I would never go without proper UVB lights. I know when i need to replace them just by how my beardies start to act. once i get a new light in there they perk up and are more active and have a better appetite.

 

[Claudiusx]

"It is physiologically impossible for those dragons to be healthy under those living conditions, especially if it's been a long period of time."
don't be offended but the above statement is not smart.
there is a general way that is "standard", but i know there is a very respected
chameleon keeper that does it all with diet so it prolly can be done with beardies as well. i know the cham keeper is now experimenting with lighting, go figure...

Apples and oranges. Comparing them, is not very smart.

It IS Physiologically impossible. That wasn't an opinion, that was a fact based on the basic metabolic and physical requirements of a bearded dragon.

It's like saying my car doesn't need gasoline to run because that new ford can run off of corn oil. Mine can too right?

You are comparing the needs of a tropical lizard, who requires far less uvb, and far less heat, to a desert lizard, who requires far hotter environments, and far more uvb radiation.

-Brandon

 

[Soulwind]

No real reason to jump in on the dragon UV and Heat question as it's been answered completely.

As for the Dubia, if kept at a reasonable room temperature they can survive and even breed without additional heating. However, it's far from optimal conditions for them and they will breed much slower than they would be under proper conditions (and probably having a much larger mortality level than normal too).

 

[Lpsouth1978]

....don't be offended but the above statement is not smart.
there is a general way that is "standard", but i know there is a very respected
chameleon keeper that does it all with diet so it prolly can be done with beardies as well. i know the cham keeper is now experimenting with lighting, go figure...

Comparing chameleons to bearded dragons is in NO WAY correct or scientific. I keep both chameleons and beardies and, trust me their care requirements are VERY different. MANY chameleon owners do not use UVB, not because it is not needed, but because they tend to let them spend a good deal of time outside, in the sun, getting UV exposure and heat naturally. If one were so inclined they could do this with a beardie as well. Then a UVB bulb would not be necessary.

We do not know how long this guy has had his 2 beardies, or what his care of them is like. Perhaps he takes them outdoors often, we don't know. The fact still stands that without UVB in some form, be it bulbs or natural, these dragon will suffer, develop MBD, and possibly die.

....So I wanna ask you... Would you consider this "animal neglect"? And knowing what you know, if you had been me in his home, buying a few adult dubias, what might you have said to him about seeing what I saw? Would seeing that angered you at all? I'm just curious, because it kinda is like seeing someone putting animals health at risk right? Hehe.

Without knowing all of his care for these animals, it is impossible to say that he is neglecting or abusing them. At the moment, at least, it seems from your description that they are in decent health. If he truely is not supplying them with any UVB, they will start to deteriorate and suffer.

Another thing I noticed was he was raising his dubia roaches the same way, I mean he had them all in a colored plastic tote box and egg cartons inside as well as a cut up orange, but he had no heaters or anything else to keep them warmer, and he was obviously successfully breeding them as he had tons of babies swarming inside the egg cartons.

Dubia are VERY east to care for. He does not need an external heat source to breed them. However, they will breed MUCH slower than at a temp of 90-100. There is obviously some air exchange in his bin or all of dubia would be dead. Not having any sort of ventilation is not great for them and certainly not recommended.

It seems to me that you have done your research and have prepared properly to give your little beardie the best you can. I must commend you for your diligence in regards to your own dragon.

 

[dom1959]

closed minds can't expand...

 

[bunnyrut]

if you truly want to see the effects of not having proper set ups and lights check out this group on facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/beardeddragonlove/

it is a closed group, so you have to send a request. the amount of beardies that are put up for rescues is ridiculous. and most of them have the same issue: Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD). and the biggest factor in that is not having proper lighting. and sadly, most of them end up dying despite all of the time and money put in to undo what has been done to them.

so to dom1959's statement of closed minds can't expand: uneducated minds tend to cause more harm.
i can't back a method that has no proven long term results when there are so many cases showing that it is just out right wrong.

 

[Billybatz9]

He probably gives them outside time with uv rays stronger than UVB bulbs. Dont let him fool you

 

[Claudiusx]

closed minds can't expand...

That honestly makes no sense. You want to expand just for the point of expanding?

We KNOW what a dragon needs, and what harms it. Willfully doing something that we know will cause harm, just to "expand our minds," is not only extremely irresponsible, but it's extremely stupid.

so to dom1959's statement of closed minds can't expand: uneducated minds tend to cause more harm.

So much this.

-Brandon

 

[dom1959]

at this point your extreme lack of knowledge bridging chams and beardies is extremely obvious, i am learning about bd's every day just wish you were not so heck bent on being right, in a case where you are so ill prepared to discuss this.
mbd is not just a bd thing

What is Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD)?
Metabolic Bone Disease is unfortunately a common disease of reptiles due to lack of dietary calcium, imbalanced nutrition and/or lack of UVB rays. Just one of these things can cause serious disease even if the other aspects are all present. UVB rays are needed in reptiles to produce Vitamin D3 in the skin, which is necessary to absorb calcium from their food. Without UVB rays from either unfiltered sunlight or a UVB producing bulb your chameleon cannot absorb the calcium you are giving it. If you are not providing an adequate level of calcium in the diet then no amount of UVB will make up for it. Too high levels of phosphorus in the diet will interfere with calcium absorption so even with good calcium levels and UVB the body would not get enough. To compensate for inadequate calcium absorption the body will pull calcium directly out of the bones so there is enough calcium for critical functions like muscle movement and metabolism. On x-rays the bones may not even show up in the end stages because there is so little calcium left. MBD affected animals (doesn't just happen to reptiles) can have bones break just by walking because they are so weak. MBD eventually kills them because the body needs calcium for many crucial bodily processes. Signs of MBD include stunted growth, bent leg bones, fractures of those bones (double elbows or knees), grabbing at its own legs, tongue not shooting as far as normal, a soft jaw, the mouth doesn't close all the way, etc. Damage from MBD cannot be reversed completely but the process can be stopped and the bones can heal if proper UVB is supplied and the imbalance of dietary calcium is addressed (see nutrition section). A vet may have to give injectable calcium to replace the deficit in more than mild cases. It is very important to address MBD as soon as symptoms are noticed to stop the damage being done.

 

[dom1959]

We KNOW what a dragon needs, and what harms it. Willfully doing something that we know will cause harm, just to "expand our minds," is not only extremely irresponsible, but it's extremely stupid.

thinking that you have cornered the market on the knowledge your pet requires is dangerous...


to your pet.