Protein vs Calcium

[RobbinRN]

Some of you may be aware of my ongoing problems with Little Man continuing to have twitching and apparent seizures when he gets excited or stressed. He's been treated for parasites and has had several calcium gluconate injections. Yesterday at the vet she told me that it seemed I was doing everything right regarding husbandry and perhaps it was just that for some reason his body wasn't absorbing the calcium properly. We went over his diet and when I told her how many crickets and PWs I feed him on a daily basis, she thought that was way too much protein and it might be interfering with his calcium utilization. She conferred with another vet and they were in agreement. It was recommended that I only give him 5 crickets a day and no more than about 10 worms because the majority of his diet should be comprised of salad greens. This goes against what everyone else seems to do. It seems like all the beardie parents on this forum feed their beardies TONS of bugs and they grow like crazy. Little Man was born in early to mid January and he only weighs 30 grams (which is a gain of 20 grams since I got him the last weekend in March) so I thought maybe I wasn't feeding him enough. I had been offering him a larger portion of bugs in the previous few days and he started having more frequent attacks. Perhaps she's right after all. What do y'all think?

Also...on the subject of calcium gluconate injections, where exactly do they give it? He has a small bump on his back (left of his spine) that recently popped up and I wonder if it's irritation or a calcium deposit where the injection has been given.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...Robbin

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

Hi Robbin,

I'm sorry you are having so many problems with Little Man. I personally have never heard of a baby getting too much protein. Are these herp vets you are taking him too?

If I were you I would pm Tracie(Drache613) and ask her input on this. Plus she might be able to help you out with that bump by his spine. I am assuming you were not in the room when they gave him the calcium injections, I have no idea where they inject it either. Tracie would definitely know!

Take care of your Little Man!

Dawn

 

[RobbinRN]

Thanks for the reply. The vet group I go to was recommended by the vet where I take my dogs because they see "exotics." They were already seeing my snakes when I got Little Man. They say they see a lot of beardies, but none quite so young as Little Man. Of course, the most common ailment is calcium deficiency which does present with symptoms such as his, so that was the immediate diagnosis. I don't know anyone else with a beardie and I don't know any herp-only vets.

The crazy thing is that he eats, poops, sleeps, thermoregulates, etc. normally. He hardly ever displays black beard and rarely any belly stripes. He just is growing slowly, has his "fits," and has a very crooked tail. I've asked the vet about blood work, but she says he's so little she wouldn't really be able to get enough to run a full panel.

A couple of nights ago I read the entire thread about Willy from last year and it started out sounding similar, but then just advanced to a point I hope Little Man never gets. It was very sad. Hopefully, Tracie will see this post and have some input. If not, then I'll try to PM her when I have more time to repeat the whole story.

Thanks so much!

Robbin

 

[spurlee01]

You're vet seems to assume that babies need the same as adults. Babies should definitely have more protein than veggies whereas adults do need more veggies.
Sara

 

[RobbinRN]

Sara,

I know...that's what I told her I'd been reading everywhere, but she said sometimes too much protein will interfere with calcium absorption. I was also surprised when I read something to that effect on last year's thread about Willy. I'm getting so much conflicting information that I don't know what to believe anymore I just know that I want to do what's best for Little Man

Robbin

 

[spurlee01]

That's tough. I know you want to do the best for him. You might PM Tracie with just a link to this post and see what she says so you don't have to retell the entire story. Just a thought,
Sara

 

[RobbinRN]

I'm ashamed to admit that I don't know how to do that :? If anyone else sees this and would be so kind, I would really appreciate it!

Robbin

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

I'll pm Tracie for you, Robbin. :wink:

 

[Drache613]

Hello Robbin,

Geez, there have been alot of problems lately with dragons not properly absorbing calcium.
Which UVB light are you using?
Do you give him calcium daily, or just the injections? What type of vitamins are you giving?
It is recommended to get a single calcium injection, just to boost the levels initially. Then, he really should be on oral calcium glubionate I feel, that would help him more.
Can you post a picture of his back to see that bump/lump on there?
Has he had calcium problems from birth?
What greens & veggies does he get?
I agree to a certain extent, that too much protein can interfere with calcium absorption, but there has to be a happy medium otherwise, he wont grow properly either. So, I am not sure that cutting his protein that drastically would make that much of a difference.
Also, some other problems that can cause calcium absorption problems is inbreeding, or hypocalcemia of the mother at the time of laying, adeno virus, & other nutritional factors.

Tracie

 

[RobbinRN]

Good Morning Tracie ~

Little Man was born in January. I got him the last weekend in March at a weight of 10 g (not really sure of length). He now weighs 30 g, is 9" long, and the space between his eyes is 1/2". It seems like he should be bigger by now. Since I don't feel his appetite is a problem, I recently posted a thread where I was wondering if I weren't feeding him enough volume crickets and worms compared to everyone else's beardies.

To answer all your questions:

My UVB is Reptisun 10.0. It was purchased brand new in April right after I got LM. He's in a 20-g glass tank and the light is 20" long. There are varying perch heights for him to get under the light and he moves about during the day. He sleeps on his little hammock which is only about 4 inches from the light and he usually gets there an hour or so before lights out and stays there an hour or so after lights on every day. I bought a MVB the other day and then got home and realized it was the one listed on here as being a problem (PowerSun), so I need to take it back and get a Megaray from online. His basking light is on one end and also has varying heights to sit under it at different temperatures.

He gets calcium daily with ZooMed Repticalcium. I dust his crickets and his veggies. It states it contains calcium carbonate and cholecalciferol (vitamin D3 source). I use RepCal Herptivite with beta carotene for his multivitamins and he gets this two to four times a week. He has received three calcium gluconate injections (with D3) since his first vet visit. She said it may have indeed been something that started when he was a hatchling and it may take some time to truly get it corrected. In the meantime, his tail has become quite crooked in a couple of places and curls on the end. It looks like no other beardie tail I've ever seen in pictures on this forum. Oh, and if I switch to a Megaray, do I have to change my calcium supplement to one without D3? Which do you recommend?

As far as his salad mixture goes, I primarily use collard and mustard greens, with a tiny bit of carrots and very rare red cabbage mixed in. Some days he eats a lot of it and other days he doesn't touch it. I have used squash in the past, but I'm out of that right now.

He has been treated for parasites with Metpan and is finished with that. His poop looks entirely normal to me.

As for pictures, my camera just happens to be dead. I have pics of him, but thought a good full-body shot of back and tail would be best. Also, even if I could get a picture later today when my camera is charged, I have never been very successful at posting pictures on forums because of the size of them. I'll give it a try though, so be checking back for that.

Interestingly, I bought crickets day before yesterday and they were much smaller than the ones I have been giving him recently. I had to work yesterday and hubby was out of town, so my sister-in-law came and fed him. She gave him 4 in the moring and 4 in the afternoon. She says he had absolutely no spasms when she handled him. I have already handled him twice this morning and not once did he feel like he was stiffening up. He seemed able to use his back legs a little better. Could it be that I had upped the SIZE of his prey too quickly? Isn't it true that they will have rear leg paralysis and spasms if their prey is too large? Maybe I should just continue getting the tiniest crickets I can find and go back to the small PW instead of the mediums. Is is possible that it might be something just that simple? He actually ate about 20 of those little tiny buggers for me this morning!

I started calling him Little Man as a generic term of endearment until I could think of a name. He's such a little runt that it now seems Little Man suits him just fine and is his official name

If there are any other questions I can answer, please let me know. He actually seems like a happy little guy and both my husband and I are very attached to him. With him not thriving as I expected, it seems my snakes and dogs are being neglected. I even spend all day at work trying to come up with ideas. My patients in the ICU are extremely sick and I really should be thinking of them :roll:

Thank you for trying to help me. Anything you can think of would be great.

Robbin

 

[RobbinRN]

Tracie,

How are these?

The two above were taken a few days after I got him. He was sitting on my chest. He weighed 10 g at the time. Notice how his tail looks pretty normal here.

The last four were taken today, 06/03/09, in his tank. He is just hanging out digesting his crickets. He now weighs 30 g. Notice the irregularity of his tail now and the light-colored bump on the left side of his spine, most noticeable in the second pic. He's very alert and was looking up through the screen while I was taking the pics from above!

All pictures were taken with my phone (LG Dare 3.0 megapixels). I can do better when my regular camera is charged. BTW, this is my first attempt at posting pictures and they came from Photobucket. Hope y'all can see them.

Thanks!

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

Robbin....Little Man is adorable! So his tail has just recently started getting crooked? Poor little guy....it looks like MBD. I know you said you have had problems with him before. Was he being treated for MBD?

I certainly hope Tracie can help you with your little man. I know how much you care about him.

Oh...you mentioned what kind of Calcium to use with the mvb. It would have to be without D3, but I think Tracie was talking about putting him on the liquid calcium. I would hold off for now on getting that in case she does reccomend him being on liquid.

 

[RobbinRN]

Thanks Dawn I was afraid it was MBD, but what did I do wrong? Everything I've done is what I've learned here and in my de Vosjoli book, The Bearded Dragon Manual. If it is indeed MBD, what can I do at this point to stop it? I just want to see him fat and happy like all the others.

Robbin

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

If it is MBD(which is just my opinion) he is still young enough that it can be treated successfully. I don't quite understand how he came about it considering your set up is correct. Unless of course it is one of the other problems Tracie mentioned.

I know you have been getting all of your info from here. In fact, I recall helping you when you first came here.

Hopefully when Tracie puts him on the liquid calcium you will see some results. I will keep my fingers crossed for you and Little Man.

I did want to mention if you get the Megaray or any mvb that you will need a bigger enclosure. I believe a 40 gal breeder is the smallest you can use them in.

 

[RobbinRN]

Actually, my plan is to move him into my 40-g as soon as I decide what type of enclosure I want to move my male BP into. I will hold off on the MVB until then I suppose.

Robbin