Playsand

[dragonowner2598]

I have an 11 inch beardie and people are telling me that playsand is harmful for him. I feed him in a different tank that does not have playsand in it. If playsand is not right what is :?:

 

[nair88]

read this post for a good list of reasons why sand is bad - viewtopic.php?f=34&t=132151

as far as other substrates to use; slate tile, non-adhesive shelf liner, and reptile carpet are all excellent choices. i personally use tiles. they make cleanup very easy, they hold heat well, and they file down your dragon's nails while walking on it

 

[Mitsumike]

Ok I am bringing this back up b/c the question wasn't answered. That link described issues with feeding in enclosures with sand not feeding in a separate enclosure and letting the dragon be housed with sand.
I have gone over this MANY times in my head and I just can't see how sand is bad. If you scoop everything out each time and surrounding area there shouldn't be an issue. As far as the "juices" playsand clumps up under liquid so getting them out is pretty simple. Also once the dragon is old enough not to lick everything I don't see how sand is an issue but rather the better solution. My little guy LOVES to dig now that I switched him to sand. He doesn't scrap at the tub anymore, he is chill.
Anything to go against this would be great as housing my the dragon the best is my main goal.

 

[Jess]

Just because you get all of the "juices" out of the sand doesn't mean that you have gotten any potential parasites out as well. Beardies never outgrow licking things either. My boy is 2 1/2 - 3 yrs old, and he licks things just as much as my baby did.
Plus, no matter how careful you are with sand, there is no way to eliminate all of the dust that is stirred up by it. They can get respiratory infections from breathing it in, and if you read through the thread that I posted, you would have seen my baby beardie that had a horrible eye infection and abscess in his eye that was caused by particle substrate. He almost needed surgery, and even after it all healed, he couldn't see well at all out of that eye. IDK if you have ever had a rescue beardie, or a beardie with medical problems cause by some one else's carelessness, but I would not wish this experience on anyone. You would never know how horrible and stressful it is until it happens to you.

Plus, I have been doing some research on silica based sand. Since the sand they sell at hardware stores isn't meant to be lived in or consumed, what goes into it isn't regulated very well. There are plenty of impurities like tar, ash, and other chemicals in it. I've bought bags of silica based sand before (for non-beardie related uses) and there are huge "CAUTION" labels on it, that warn not to breath it in, that it can cause cancer, ect. Think about it. If it's not even safe for humans to be exposed to this stuff for prolonged periods of time, how safe do you think it is for your beardie to live in this stuff?

 

[Mitsumike]

Plus, I have been doing some research on silica based sand. Since the sand they sell at hardware stores isn't meant to be lived in or consumed, what goes into it isn't regulated very well. There are plenty of impurities like tar, ash, and other chemicals in it. I've bought bags of silica based sand before (for non-beardie related uses) and there are huge "CAUTION" labels on it, that warn not to breath it in, that it can cause cancer, ect. Think about it. If it's not even safe for humans to be exposed to this stuff for prolonged periods of time, how safe do you think it is for your beardie to live in this stuff?

Everything you said up to this has made sense and I can see your point. But as most people use tile or like substrates, which are porous, don't you think that parasites can live in these types of environment as well? Yes I will say bleaching and straining sand would be harder, but yet very possible. All substrates except for paper seem to pose the same issues with parasite infestation. Though I do see how bleaching tiles would be easier, as I have just cleaned my setup and bleaching the rock hide and slate tile was much easier than cleaning the 50 lbs of sand. haha
The last paragraph is really only applied to some, if any, play sands. Sand that is ment to be played with by children and possibly consumed by horse play, is not going to have these chemicals or dangers in them as you state they might. As far as the caution label is concerned it has nothing to do with eating or anything, it has to do with that is not used for commercial use. Though I have not broken down the actual chemicals in the sand.
I do see how it can cause as respiratory infection, which with that and possible eye issues I can see how it can be a problem. So I do see now how sand is bad but all substrates have their issues. I am glad future people can now see what issues it acutally does have.
MSDS of the Playsand I use:
http://www.quikrete.com/PDFs/MSDS-B4-Playsand.pdf

 

[Jess]

I use non-adhesive shelf liner, which is non-porous and super easy to wipe clean. That's actually the reason that I personally don't use tile- I didn't like how it absorbed the "juices".
I've always used non-adhesive shelf liner, and both the dragons Ive had have been 100% parasite free. :wink:

I noticed a few things on that link that I would like to point out:

Note: Keeping Play Sand damp eliminates the hazards associated with its dust.

POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS:

Inhalation:
Silicosis Respirable crystalline silica (quartz) can cause silicosis, a fibrosis (scarring) of the
lungs. Silicosis may be progressive; it may lead to disability and death.

Eye Contact: Crystalline silica (quartz) may cause abrasion of the cornea.

Chronic Effects: The adverse health effects -- silicosis, lung cancer, autoimmune and chronic
kidney diseases, tuberculosis, and non-malignant respiratory diseases-- are chronic effects.

Ingestion: Not applicable.

It says that keeping it wet will eliminate the dust hazards, which is what I commonly see in kid's sand boxes. But you obviously can't keep a beardie's sand wet, because that would raise the humidity too much. It also mentions that it can damage the cornea (which is what happened to my poor little guy). And although I'm not which of the chronic effects can affect beardies, I think that it shows that you aren't supposed to have chronic exposure to this stuff. Keep in mind that your beardie would be living in the sand 24/7, with his or her little head just inches above it (or even in it), and every time he or she moves, it will be stirred up.
And by the looks of it, Quikrete hasn't done very much research on what can happen if their product is ingested, as it is "non-applicable"... They don't expect the average kid to be shoveling handfuls of sand into their mouth. But any beardie kept on sand will end up ingesting some amount of it.

I had read a really good article last year on the impurities found in silica sand (Actually, it was specifically on Quikrete brand) that can harm animals that are kept on it, but I can't find it on the website anymore... It really isn't a high quality sand though, and I wouldn't even use it for my hermit crabs.

 

[coastergirl946]

After my boyfriend's beardie suffered greatly from impaction caused by sand, I refuse to believe that sand is good for them. Curt struggled terribly while passing a sand impaction.. his beard turned black and he trembled in pain with his butt swollen, and about 8 inches of poop came out. He shut his eyes and collapsed afterward.. I quickly grabbed him out of the water and he was unresponsive for several seconds. I was sure he had died. When he did wake up, he wouldn't leave my side. It tore me apart to see him in so much pain.
I also noticed that the pungent smell is gone from his viv now that the sand is gone and we are now using terrarium liner.
Sand harbors bacteria and it causes digestive problems. I absolutely will not ever subject my future beardies to this horrible substrate after seeing for myself that it does more harm than good.
I would use repti-carpet, tile, non-adhesive shelf liner, or something else they cannot swallow. I don't want anyone's beardie to go through what Curt did.

 

[Slave2Scarlett]

It's not just the parasites that stay in the sand.. Its the fact that beardies lick everything... If you ever just watch them they will walk around the viv licking the wall...the floor... the bowl.. EVERYTHING including SAND... Every time they lick the sand they ingest some.. After time and time again of doing that they will become impacted.. Resulting in a very sick beardie, an expensive vet bill and possibly death.. So why risk it?

 

[Mitsumike]

After my boyfriend's beardie suffered greatly from impaction caused by sand, I refuse to believe that sand is good for them. Curt struggled terribly while passing a sand impaction.. his beard turned black and he trembled in pain with his butt swollen, and about 8 inches of poop came out. He shut his eyes and collapsed afterward.. I quickly grabbed him out of the water and he was unresponsive for several seconds. I was sure he had died. When he did wake up, he wouldn't leave my side. It tore me apart to see him in so much pain.
I also noticed that the pungent smell is gone from his viv now that the sand is gone and we are now using terrarium liner.
Sand harbors bacteria and it causes digestive problems. I absolutely will not ever subject my future beardies to this horrible substrate after seeing for myself that it does more harm than good.
I would use repti-carpet, tile, non-adhesive shelf liner, or something else they cannot swallow. I don't want anyone's beardie to go through what Curt did.

Yet each of the materials you have listed besides the shelf liner can become a parasite infestation. Also this has to do with not feeding on sand.

 

[Mitsumike]

It's not just the parasites that stay in the sand.. Its the fact that beardies lick everything... If you ever just watch them they will walk around the viv licking the wall...the floor... the bowl.. EVERYTHING including SAND... Every time they lick the sand they ingest some.. After time and time again of doing that they will become impacted.. Resulting in a very sick beardie, an expensive vet bill and possibly death.. So why risk it?

This is true but beyond the a year and a healthy dragon do you really think that licking a few times a day will lead to an impaction seeing they defecate at least once a day everything that was ingested that day is not passed to the case of it building up is impossible. It's simple biology.

People are really missing the point to me asking this question. It's not a simple is it bad or good but rather with tall the issues that people say how it compares to the to the other "best" substrates. I am not arguing just to argue but to rather help future people unstand this topic over just yes or no you shouldn't use it and it might cause impaction.
As far as recommendation for repticarpet.......that is quite shocking to me. I have have heard and experienced horror stories using this over sand.


Now to my conversion with jess......you have me quite intrigued about this shelf liner.
I did some searches and came up with this:
http://www.duckbrand.com/Products/shelf-liner/non-adhesive-liners/original-easy-liner.aspx

It seems quite odd to me though. Using this has holes in allow the poop to just sit until cleaned up. But the other solid liner I have seen, seems very slick and not good for a dragon to be walking on, on a daily basis. Though it might no be known or heard of, it is quite a possibility of a dragon actually spraining or worse on slick surfaces.
Can you direct me to what you are referring to, if I am incorrect.

 

[Mitsumike]

*double post* sorry

 

[Mitsumike]

I think I found what you are talking about. I must have missed this the first time but now I see that with the non slip lining the surface is not smooth. Is this the stuff?
http://www.duckbrand.com/Products/shelf-liner/non-adhesive-liners/solid-easy-liner.aspx

 

[Slave2Scarlett]

@mitsumike I think you are missing the point here.. Ok so you think that you can clean and disinfect sand to prevent parasites just as well as any other substrate.. But what can you do to sand to prevent Impaction?

 

[Slave2Scarlett]

I didn't realize u had posted the other before i posted so it makes me look like i didn't even pay attention to what u said lol Me personally I just don't want to risk it.. I've just heard to many horrible stories about them becoming impacted..

 

[Vader6]

I didn't realize u had posted the other before i posted so it makes me look like i didn't even pay attention to what u said lol Me personally I just don't want to risk it.. I've just heard to many horrible stories about them becoming impacted..

Completely understandable. I am not saying I am not switching from sand (I am) I am just stating facts to benefit the conversion.