Lump on back of beardies head (appeared all of a sudden)

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am glad to hear you are using honey on that area. So it is itching him quite a bit? Is it improving any yet or not?
How is his appetite doing, has he been eating regularly & basking too?
I hope that he is doing well & that it gets better for him.

Tracie

 

[kingofnobbys]

Hello,

I am glad to hear you are using honey on that area. So it is itching him quite a bit? Is it improving any yet or not?
How is his appetite doing, has he been eating regularly & basking too?
I hope that he is doing well & that it gets better for him.

Tracie

hi Tracie ,

Has a brandnew UVB200 (only a fortnight ago) , no change in behaviour since installing, so I guess the old globe were still putting out good amounts of UVA and UVB.

No longer scratching away with his hind foot, still a bit rubbing going on against his furnature (basking ledge and big piece of natural eucalypt (bluegum) bark - a very rough textured surface. But seems to slowly healing.

The abrasions don't seem to bothering him as much today.

No change in his appetite ( though he was very distracted by Rex (who was in her enclosure and watching him eat on me (supers + crickets for diner today) and really wanted to get back down on the floor to go and "talk / flirt" with Rex (both were a handful today at feeding time). I feed insects most days once per day (mid to late pm).
Still grazing him veg/salad/pellets mix daily.

Basking schedule is as normal for him (usually most the am until lunch - lights on a timer and come on at 6am) , then as the sun heads west , it's play time (usually 1 beardie + 1 bluetongue (floor buddy) at a time , he had all afternoon today on the floor and spent most of it either basking in the sun as it came in through the window) or admiring Rex in her enclosure. Then back on the floor after diner while I fed Wriggle , and low and behold he's blackbeard, dashing across the floor , near crashed through Rex's enclosure side , haven't seen him so fast for a while , and headbanging like there is no tomorrow LOL , not had that since last spring/summer and he was trying to get in with Rex who responded by headnodding and armwaving and then came over to flirt / tease him , next he's humping the ridge edge of the carpet .... I think spring has arrived (was the warmest day since May today , even I'm back into shorts and tee-shirts and the a/cond was turned off for the first time in 4 months .... and we are in for another torrid few months ....
So he seems fine in that department and acting as he should , and the lump isn't holding him back at all.

Ordinarily Puff is the most laid back , placid , and uber-affectionate beardie I've ever seen. Loves a nice snuggle and back tickle (will happily take it for hours if he could).

Rex has her moments and loves a nice nurse and neck rub and back tickle too but is usually wanting down within 10 minutes to do the mad beardie thing - loves trotting about and exploring everything until she crashes in the corner somewhere or wonders over and asks to be picked back up by me or my wife.Very unusual for Rex , she's still awake tonight and watching the TV and me from her enclosure , and it's 8pm , change of season and hormones kicking back in maybe.

Both are bossed about by my itsy bitzy little water skink (Wriggles -all she has do is glare at them or do a couple of sharp head nods and they get the message , amazing she's 40ish grams, they are getting up towards 700g). They both get jealous of her when I'm nursing or feeding her too.

Both Puff and Rex are all right in the pooing department too , regular as clockwork every day, I get worried with Puff if misses a day. Rex will regularly miss a day or two, exactly same diet !

Mmm might have to think about getting an incubator (or putting my order with wife or son for one for Dad's Day).

PS he keeps human hours - so does Wriggle the Water Skink, and is often still awake and watching TV ( if it's a show or movie he "likes" sometimes as late a 1am . Even though his lights went off at 9:30pm and I've turned the lights off in the lounge-dining areas), very sleepy next day and crashes earlier. Sleep OK without needing to retire under his hide (1/2 log) and often sleeps ontop of it.
Rex on the other hand is usually off in the land of zzzzzzz before our diner time (7pm). The water skink is the same - and she'll retire only after what she wants to watch is over.

Never would have thought lizards would love TV.

 

[kingofnobbys]

UPDATE :

Lump seems to grown a bit more - probable as large as the bottom 1/4 of a chicken egg now.'

I STILL suspect it's some kind of pseudo aneurism (bleed under the skin) as I think if it was an abscess or a cancer he'd be symptomatic and likely showing that he's feeling off (not being interested in food and lethargic) and would show indications that he's in pain ie not tolerating the lump being touched and showing a permanent blackbeard , he's not showing any of these symptoms or behaviour changes - so we are taking the wait and see approach and keeping an eye out for any indications.

From what I've read - there is very little information on these on bearded dragons or any other kind of lizard available on the internet - these are very difficult and dangerous to the beardie to treat (involves very invasive surgery and likely considerable blood loss) and often intervention results in a dead beardie and a big vet bill to add insult to the injury.

We'll just have a beardie with a lump on his head for now and are reluctant to intervene in any way that's invasive/painful (recovery) and dangerous unless we think that it's starting to effect his quality of life and comfort , only effect it seems to have is it gets in the way and he often bumps it or rubs some skin off it , even then he seems obvious to the injury he's done to himself ( I apply maluka honey to any skin breaks).

He tends to do the most damage getting under his old 1/2 log hide , so I've taken it away (not enough clearance) - and I've ordered an jumbo sized Hubba Hut for him (will give him a bit more "head clearance" 12cm cf 6cm at the entrances - I did consider getting out the angle grinder and grinding off the entrance (moulding) lips but will only give another cm of headroom and might compromise the structural strength of the existing cast acrylic fake log hide).

 

[AHBD]

I would say so far so good, and I agree with your reasoning on non-treatment. Seems like he's doing fine, and if that's a current pic of him + Rex on Porschy's thread he looks good and the lump doesn't look too awfully big.

 

[kingofnobbys]

That was Puff and Rex sharing some quality daddy-time before bed-time on 1st June (was middle of winter here and both wide awake and oblivious to it being winter here).

been a white since I took a photo of Puff's lump , so i'll take one or 2 today or tomorrow and post them here.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Oh I was hoping that it wouldn't change any! At least he really doesn't seem to be bothered by it then which sounds like he isn't in any pain, either.
I agree, treatment of these types of things are dangerous for humans, too not to mention reptiles also.
Definitely post a picture or two when you get a chance.

Tracie

 

[kingofnobbys]

Latest images of Puff , showing his strange undiagnosed lump , taken this afternoon during his customary afternoon snuggle with dad.

Note - no blackbeard showing, and he's coloured up nicely (sure sign he's happy and enjoying the snuggle).

He's due for his next shed soon I think too.

His sibling Rex is currently in piecemeal shed and he's usually fairly much shed at about the same time.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Puff's jumbo size HubbaHut arrived today, it's huge cf his old fake 1/2 log , loads of space for him to curl up and he should be able to turn around with ease now.

He's not gone under it yet, been without a hide for a couple of weeks, so he's now used to not having a hide.

No more banging his head or rubbing skin off the crest of his lump while trying to squeeze under or while trying to do a U-turn under the hide.

Ordered another jumbo sized HubbaHut for Rex, she loves her hide and will enjoy the extra space too.

 

[AHBD]

Oh, sorry I missed the post with new pics of Puff. I hope he likes his new hidey cave . I must say that I'd be really concerned now with the size that mass has grown to. I know you must be super worried and I wonder if there is a teaching university that would have a look to give an educated guess on what it is or a way to biopsy it and advise on any possible remedy. Hopefully it will stop and not grow any larger. Maybe Tracie [ Drache] will have some suggestions or know someone who could even view those pics and give an educated guess.

It is good that he's still active + eating and from your description sounds like he himself is oblivious to it. Go Puff !

 

[AHBD]

I want to add that you might consider a fine needle aspiration ....checking the cells that would be pulled can perhaps at least diagnose whether it's cancerous or a pus filled abcess. The abcess can be drained then + proper antibiotics given. I don't know what could be dome if it WERE a blood filled hematoma though. Here's a link to another forum with a thread addressing a beardie with a lump on it's beard [ though not as big as Puff's ]
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwi3qq_kmZDIAhVFmh4KHX5bBS4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.repticzone.com%2Fforums%2FBeardedDragonCommunity%2Fmessages%2F1293068.html&usg=AFQjCNGdUHwiEpxt9qsa9h-4yAWK6KJo9A&sig2=WL8osYd2NrU43qOYYfeJng

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Oh wow, it really has gotten large hasn't it?
At least it doesn't seem to be bothering him & that he doesn't have a black beard which is great!
I do think that it probably does need to be drained somehow, so you can try to get some fluid out to have it cultured. It is possible that it could be an infection in maybe one of the sinus cavities perhaps. The eye is swollen along with it, so it could be related in some way. Or it could simply just be the pressure from the swelling on top of the head pressing on the nerves around the eye to cause swelling on the eye orbit, too.
Are you comfortable trying to get it drained? I do think that some of the pressure should be relieved though for him. Poor thing, I feel terrible that he is going through this!

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

 

[kingofnobbys]

I want to add that you might consider a fine needle aspiration ....checking the cells that would be pulled can perhaps at least diagnose whether it's cancerous or a pus filled abcess. The abcess can be drained then + proper antibiotics given. I don't know what could be dome if it WERE a blood filled hematoma though. Here's a link to another forum with a thread addressing a beardie with a lump on it's beard [ though not as big as Puff's ]
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwi3qq_kmZDIAhVFmh4KHX5bBS4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.repticzone.com%2Fforums%2FBeardedDragonCommunity%2Fmessages%2F1293068.html&usg=AFQjCNGdUHwiEpxt9qsa9h-4yAWK6KJo9A&sig2=WL8osYd2NrU43qOYYfeJng

I actually found that link a while ago, but lost the link.

If it is indeed a bleed under the skin , I'm worried that any intrusive procedures might make him bleed out.

I've sent an email to Prof Tosney (Maime) who I hope is the right professor mentioned in the thread who has/had a study going regarding aneurysms in reptiles in the hope she might take a look at this thread and my images of Puff and how the lump has developed , and my observations of his behaviour and lack of symptoms (other than the lump and the swollen eye) and might offer an opinion.

I wish there was a vet science faculty nearby but as I've said , I've little confidence in the local reptile vets.

PS : Puff loves his big new Hubba-Hut.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Hello,

Oh wow, it really has gotten large hasn't it?
At least it doesn't seem to be bothering him & that he doesn't have a black beard which is great!
I do think that it probably does need to be drained somehow, so you can try to get some fluid out to have it cultured. It is possible that it could be an infection in maybe one of the sinus cavities perhaps. The eye is swollen along with it, so it could be related in some way. Or it could simply just be the pressure from the swelling on top of the head pressing on the nerves around the eye to cause swelling on the eye orbit, too.
Are you comfortable trying to get it drained? I do think that some of the pressure should be relieved though for him. Poor thing, I feel terrible that he is going through this!

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

Have been seriously considering asking a vet to look at it and take a sample of what is in it, but am scared doing this even this may prove dangerous.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Just checked , the nearest teaching vet school (and exotic animal's hospital) is associated with Sydney University and is located at Camden (over 230km and 4hrs or more each way driving) away (virtually on the other side of Sydney from here).

So not practical to take him to be seen by them and it would be extremely stressful for Puff to be cooped up in travel tub in the car for up to 8 or more hours.

I've contacted the Australian Reptile Park and asked who they recommend as a good reptile vet on the central coast (very much closer and much less stress for Puff if I decide to go to the vet they recommend). The Australian Reptile Park is only 80 km and 1.5 hours each way.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Update:

Wow ! just got a response from Professor Tosney (thankyou) .

Her comments are as follows :

Ian, I recommend that you take him to a vet who has experience with reptiles. Experience is important, since reptile anaesthia is a specialized area.




At the least, the welling needs to be drained. It may be a large hematoma (a collection of blood outside of the blood vessels), but even if so, draining is unlikely to make him 'bleed out'-- if he were were continuously bleeding into this area, he would be dead! It may be an infection, with puss in it, which can be cultured to see if infectious elements are still there. But relieving the pressure it by draining could prevent damage to the eye, and make him much more comfortable (not to mention, prettier).





Best,

Kathryn

That's a relief (that it's not likely to be a continuous bleed) but may a large haematoma or some kind of puss filled infection.

Will be contacting a vet on Monday to arrange to have Puff and my historical pictures of the growth of the lump looked at and discussed and some minimally invasive tests done to find out what it is.