Long time no see! Got a question?

[Claudiusx]

In addition, this site is only very stern headed on recommending against things that are dangerous. Opinions are fine and everyone likes to do their own thing differently, but when it affects the health of the dragon, you can bet we are going to be stern headed on the matter. That is the only reason the majority of us even post on this site, we care about the dragons.

-Brandon

 

[DeweysMom]

I'm signing off this one but it is worth pointing out that most modern zoos try to replicate as closely as possible the beneficial aspects of animals' natural environments, as opposed to concrete and steel cages. Our beardie is happy on artificial turf but if she demonstrated a desire to dig, we'd try to accommodate this natural behaviour, just like she's got a big vertical log to sit on top of since beardies like to be able to survey their surroundings. It is everyone's option to ignore expert advice but there should be some justification besides asserting that you're right. Is there any evidence in the veterinary literature, for example, that adult bearded dragons kept with the correct temperatures, humidity and nutrition have any significant risk of impaction when kept on appropriate sand substrates? I do science for a living (nothing relevant to here) but one thing I've been taught is to go by evidence, not repeated assertions. In his book, Dr. Brown says "I use sand in enclosures housing virtually all arid or semi-arid species and for most non-rainforest arboreal species." I would at least give some credence to Australian vets and leading Australian breeders writing about the care of Australian lizards in captivity, but that's my choice; it doesn't have to be anyone else's.

In any event, I'm off this thread--it's way too much like a theological dispute. I think I'll start a new one about why we prefer the compact fluorescent lights--that shouldn't bother anyone! :wink:

I agree that most zoos these days do try to replicate the natural enviroments as much as possible, BUT they will also eliminate the potential risks where possible. When there's clear proof of the harm loose substrates can cause, why wouldn't we want to eliminate these risks from our pets? To me, using a loose substrate is just playing with fire. You may get lucky and never have a problem with it. Or, you may come home to find a very sick or dead beardie because of issues caused by it. For me, this is not a chance I'm absolutely not willing to take.

And, as for your Dr. Brown reference, I can honestly say I've never heard of him and have no idea who he is. However, I would not rely solely on the "expert" advice of just one person to say yes something's good or no something's bad. Everyone has their own opinion. I'm basing my feelings on facts. Facts given by previous experiences with owners who have dealt with a sick or dying beardie because of loose substrate. Facts given to me by my own personal vet who highly frowned upon the use of loose substrate based on what he's seen come through his clinic.

There may very well be more sand users that don't have problems than those that do, but for me when I know something is potentially deadly to one of my pets I stop using it. I used to give my dogs those Greenie treats until I read about several dogs choking on them. My dogs never once had a problem, but hearing those stories was enough for me to stop giving them to them. I can't control everything with my pets, but what I can I want to make certain it's 100% safe for them and in their best interest.

 

[Yaaeee]

I stated why I believed it. That's that. I may not be a "Beardie Sicko", but like I said I've seen it successfully done. I stated my opinion, in the same way you stated yours. Differences exist & whether you like them or not they work for some people. And like others I'm leaving this forum because dealing with this level of "sicko" isn't worth it.


Best regards to you OP in solving your issue. Toodles.

 

[SkeptiBee]

I think it would be very illuminating if there could be a study done to measure impaction rates between wild and captive beardies. They most likely ingest sand particles when eating their food, but if their impaction rate is smaller than captive rate, discovering why this is would be really interesting for husbandry purposes.

Something to point out here: zoo enclosures that emulate wild environments typically are large enough to accommodate multiple forms of stimulation for beardies. Unlike our tiny 40 gal boxes. To that end I wouldn't recommend filling a 40 gal with any loose particle substrate but I see no reason why a dragon shouldn't be allowed to have a temporary dig box provided once and a while.

Anyway, something needs to pointed out here:

I do science for a living (nothing relevant to here) but one thing I've been taught is to go by evidence, not repeated assertions.

You kind of contradict yourself here. Why do you think we recommend what we recommend? Because enough people started saying it and it became true? Come on, let's be real here. It has come from the culminated experience of hundreds of owners on this site.

Oh, you mean it came from people who think their experiences are true! By that logic, we should lend credibility to anti-vaxers because a heck of a lot of people can come forward making experienced claims about health problems. Same with creationists who claim that they have experts who have been debunking evolution. My point is not to start a debate about the things, it's about your assertion that experience equals truth. We should not be basing facts off experience. We should be basing it off rigorous peer reviewed study. People can be doing what they believe is right for 30 years only to find out they were doing something incorrectly or something that could have done more effectively.

Many of which (myself included) had been raising dragons for over a decade. We have been around long enough to see just about every situation you could ever imagine, at least a couple times. This is what I would consider and expert, someone who has focused study, experience, and knowledge in one particular subject; not someone who has friends in the publishing world, or is thought higher of simply for a title. Can you be an expert in multiple things? Sure. Do I believe you can be an expert to the point that you can make a book on every single reptile in Australia, HECK NO. You can have a general to above-general understanding of all these reptiles, but there is no way in Hell you could have dedicated as much time and energy into researching all those reptiles and bearded dragons, as some members here actually have. Simply for the fact that he has to know a little about a lot of stuff, and we here know a lot about a certain thing, bearded dragons.

Wait, did you just say that some members of this community have researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia? I'm going to assume what you meant was that a few people actually have dedicated themselves professionally to the study of bearded dragons, and the rest sat at home and used google from the comforts of their chairs.

Trust me, those few professionals, who are probably pulling 12 hour days doing actual field and lab research I would defer to any day over someone who believes their anecdotal experience is truth.



Mods, is this what you want for this community? To scare people off from ever discussing ideas because it conflicts with current standards whether that's revolving husbandry or diets? Do you really want a community where nothing new gets discovered or shared because people have decided voicing something different gets shouted down? Because quite frankly, this isn't going to foster a healthy environment for new people or even long standing members. They will move on.

EDIT: AAaand another one bites the dust. Congratulations folks! You're fast tracking your way to parrot land!

 

[Claudiusx]

We should not be basing facts off experience. We should be basing it off rigorous peer reviewed study.

Totally disagree with you. I can think of a few examples right off the bat of instances where Studies and the "what should be" were totally contradicted by someones own experience. Take the dieting world for example. Studies and scientists said, and some still do, that intermittent fasting is pointless and dangerous. That you could never get all the nutrients your body needs from eating 1 giant meal per day, and nothing else. But, hundreds and thousands of people (especially in the weightlifting world) have done this and had experiences that totally contradict what the scientists and "studies" said should happen. Real world experiences trumps book knowledge any day of the week. This is no different.

Wait, did you just say that some members of this community have researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia?

No actually, I made it pretty clear I thought. If you paid attention to what I said you might have noticed I was referring to the other person "reference" of an expert on bearded dragons being someone who "researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia?" If you had your choice, would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching 860+ species of reptiles, or would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching bearded dragons. Hopefully you can make an inference on what point I am trying to make, and I won't have to explicitly state it for you. But then again, you've proven already that you confuse what has been said, so maybe I should.

Mods, is this what you want for this community? To scare people off from ever discussing ideas because it conflicts with current standards whether that's revolving husbandry or diets?

Am I scarring you? I'm sorry. I didn't know my point came off as scary. To me, your point is scary. Tons of risk for no reward. All I simply asked in this thread was for someone to give a benefit of housing on sand. You haven't, and neither has anyone else.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

I've seen it successfully done. I stated my opinion, in the same way you stated yours.

I am pretty sure everyone on this site knows someone or has housed a dragon successfully on sand before. Myself included. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. I've seen people ride motorcycles without helmets too, so what?

I never said if you house your dragon on sand it will die, I never said that you are a horrible owner if you do, I have never condemned anyone for housing a dragon on sand. All I have said very simply, is that there is no point, there is a lot of risk for no return, and it's not a risk that should be taken. There is no benefit to housing on sand.

There is no benefit to housing a dragon on sand.

-Brandon

 

[DeweysMom]

I personally don't understand what's so offensive or scary in any of the posts in this thread that would make someone threaten to leave. There are no insults. There's no name calling. There's no profanity. The only thing I can see is a difference of opinion. If someone can't handle someone's thoughts and views who aren't the same as their own, maybe a public forum like this isn't for them.

However, having been here for a few years now I will say that I've learned a lot from being here. I've gotten good, solid advice. My Dewey's life was made better by it as will my future beardies. I'll forever be grateful for that.

I don't think that anyone here will claim to be an expert, but I will say that there are a few members who are pretty darn close (myself not included - far from it)! If you stay, you stand to learn a lot. If you leave, you're missing out. The choice is yours.

 

[SkeptiBee]

Totally disagree with you. I can think of a few examples right off the bat of instances where Studies and the "what should be" were totally contradicted by someones own experience. Take the dieting world for example. Studies and scientists said, and some still do, that intermittent fasting is pointless and dangerous. That you could never get all the nutrients your body needs from eating 1 giant meal per day, and nothing else. But, hundreds and thousands of people (especially in the weightlifting world) have done this and had experiences that totally contradict what the scientists and "studies" said should happen. Real world experiences trumps book knowledge any day of the week. This is no different.

:lol: Just because one person's experience yields one result, does not mean another person's will yield the same. That can be especially dangerous depending on what advice is being given and to whom receives it. My previous point still stands.

By the way, what studies were these that proved the fasting wrong? Who were they funded by? How large was the sample size did they use in order to debunk former research? How are you vetting your information that you get? I'm positing this as a hypothetical. It's smart to be skeptical of anything presented as fact especially if it's based of people's personal experiences.

No actually, I made it pretty clear I thought. If you paid attention to what I said you might have noticed I was referring to the other person "reference" of an expert on bearded dragons being someone who "researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia?"

Not you were very clear. And very wrong. Dr. Danny Brown did NOT make a book cataloging care guides for all Australian reptile species, like you claimed. Label said is was only for dragons.
http://www.reptiledirect.com.au/p/376/ARK-020-Guide-to-Australian-Dragons-in-Captivity.html

Reading the product review, it doesn't seem like he has just basic knowledge of dragon care. I'm tempted to drop the 65 bucks to read through it too and see if he's just this half cracked fool you seem so hell bent on believing he is.

If you had your choice, would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching 860+ species of reptiles, or would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching bearded dragons

I wouldn't be taking my animal to a general specialist anymore than I would go to my regular doctor for for an eye exam. You're attempt at making a point is moot considering you were the one who was in error.

But then again, you've proven already that you confuse what has been said, so maybe I should.

Stop being rude. Your passive aggressiveness is beyond unnecessary. This is exactly the attitude you have that makes people leave. What you wrote was incorrect and now you're trying to blame me for not understanding. It's not my fault you wrote what you did. Take ownership of your mistake.

Am I scarring you? I'm sorry. I didn't know my point came off as scary. To me, your point is scary. Tons of risk for no reward. All I simply asked in this thread was for someone to give a benefit of housing on sand. You haven't, and neither has anyone else.

Now you're just straight up condescending. You have been the sole reason for now two people not wanting to participate on these boards. You keep this up and there be fewer people willing to engage in conversation with you. That echo chamber will get awfully lonely.

 

[SkeptiBee]

I personally don't understand what's so offensive or scary in any of the posts in this thread that would make someone threaten to leave. There are no insults. There's no name calling. There's no profanity. The only thing I can see is a difference of opinion. If someone can't handle someone's thoughts and views who aren't the same as their own, maybe a public forum like this isn't for them.

It's the presentation and the passive aggressiveness. As a person on the receiving end, it's not welcome. If I didn't find this place so valuable, I, too, would have left a long time ago due to seeing how some posters were treated here.

People will leave if they feel their thoughts or contributions aren't valued enough in a discussion. Humans sort of thrive on knowing we can be productive members to a community. If you got continuously misrepresented or shot down, I don't think you'd want to be here either.

If you stay, you stand to learn a lot. If you leave, you're missing out. The choice is yours.

Not really. There is no shortage of information or forums that have similar advice or care guides for reptiles. So I'm fairly certain they won't be missing out. I'll just miss not being able to have nice discussions with them.

 

[DeweysMom]

Well, we’re all certainly entitled to our own opinions. My personal opinion, I still see nothing wrong with what’s being said. All I see is people with strong opinions who are stating them. I don’t see this as being passive aggressive either. If there had been name calling, swearing, insulting, etc. I’d be on your side, but none of that has been posted.

As I said before, this site helped me out tremendously and I know I’m not the only one who feels that way. I’m sorry you apparently haven’t gotten the same out of it. If you choose to go, that’s your choice.

 

[label]

OK, as promised I won't mention "s**d" again but do think I need to defend the knowledge base of Australian experts writing about Australian reptiles. Only Australian reptiles may be kept in this country, so they are the focus of the herp veterinary specialists and keepers (who, by the way, are required to be licenced). I'm fascinated, Claudiusx, that you can denegrate Danny Brown's knowledge without, as you admit, ever reading anything he's written. Anyone can write a book but getting it published is another matter. He's got books in the same series on dragons, monitors, geckos and skinks; other authors handle the various snakes, turtles and frogs. I know at least one of those authors and he's also an acknowledged authority who teaches at the vet school here and looks after our beardie and bluey.

In the intro to the "Keeping Australian Dragons..." book it's noted that Dr. Brown "...has one of the largest private lizard collections in Australia has kept 175 species and successfully bred 80% of them." Hmm...sounds pretty expert to me. For another example, check out the Facebook page or Youtube channel of the "The Reptile Doctor". I think you'll find that both of them have both in-depth and broad knowledge of Australian reptiles. That's how they make their living. And given that bearded dragons are the commonest herp pet in Australia, I think that you can work out that they're pretty familiar with them. They demonstrate their expertise and don't just make assertions or state opinions--they back up what they write with evidence. That's who I'd listen to, but, hey, both Oz and the US are free countries. To see what's said Down Under, check out http://www.australianbeardies.net/index.php . There are even some Yanks as members (and not just ex-Yanks like myself!).

 

[Claudiusx]

Not you were very clear. And very wrong. Dr. Danny Brown did NOT make a book cataloging care guides for all Australian reptile species, like you claimed. Label said is was only for dragons.
http://www.reptiledirect.com.au/p/376/ARK-020-Guide-to-Australian-Dragons-in-Captivity.html

No point arguing with your whole post, as it will just run us in circles, but I will comment on this:

You are the one who is infact, still wrong. He has more than one book. I was commenting on the fact that he has a perceived expert knowledge on all these species, which is extremely hard to believe. Even you made that statement earlier with it being hard to believe someone can be an expert on that many different species.

Dr. Brown "...has one of the largest private lizard collections in Australia has kept 175 species and successfully bred 80% of them." Hmm...sounds pretty expert to me.

Not to me. It doesn't take a genius to make two creatures want to have sex.

I discredit him without reading his work for the sole fact that he has made an unwise recommendation in recommending sand for bearded dragons. I'm sure he is knowledgeable about them, but you are making him sound like God and that there is no way he could be wrong. That is the only reason I am arguing the point with you.

But honestly, this thread has gotten way out of hand. It should be a discussion on sand, and the risks/benefits of it. Not a pissing match over how smart someone is.

So, for the 4th time asking, can you name 1 benefit of housing a dragon on sand?

-Brandon

 

[Esther19]

Hey! I'm still here. :mrgreen:

 

[label]

So, for the 4th time asking, can you name 1 benefit of housing a dragon on sand?


Nah,why bother--I discussed it with our beardie. She's a lot more open to reason.

For those who like less assertion and more hard information, check out the Aussie board. Smaller but lots of expert breeders and keepers and less of the personal stuff.

 

[Claudiusx]

She's a lot more open to reason.

Coming from the person who can't give a reason. Seems logical to me.

-Brandon