Long time no see! Got a question?

[Zeusmybeardie]

So I've been gone for awhile an have an important question I know loose substrate is frowned on but Zeus just always tries to dig and dig and dig and he can't with his tile and I would like to give him a digging area so I was wondering if I make half his tank Eco earth with a divider type thing in the middle would that be okay so I can still feed him on tile let me know what you think

 

[Claudiusx]

Hi there Zeus, Definitely long time no see.

I don't really see the point in giving a digging area. While he may be clawing and making digging gestures, this isn't really a sign of him longing for a place to dig.

There is more risk with loose substrate than just the issue of feeding on. It still is extremely unsanitary, can get in the eyes, and will likely get ingested anyways as dragons like to lick everything.

Eco earth would be a worse choice than playsand IMO. But then again, they are all bad choices in my book.

-Brandon

 

[label]

Most keepers here in Australia use washed playsand though we use fake grass, for ease of cleaning, for our adult female. But this seems to be an almost religious dispute. Some breeders even keep hatchies on sand, but certainly most use it with adults. There's certainly sand and gravel in the areas Central beardies come from; Eastern beardies come from less arid parts of Australia. Our girl has very rarely shown any interest in digging but we might switch if she did; it is a normal part of their behaviour. It's like coil CFLs for UV; lots of people here use the name brand ones now, which didn't have the problem, but they still seem shunned in the States.

 

[mortitia]

Hi

I also use another forum and the recommendation there is for sand & limestone. There are also other 'different' opinions regarding set up and care, especially from keepers in Australia.

Its soooo confusing

Marie x

 

[DeweysMom]

Hi

I also use another forum and the recommendation there is for sand & limestone. There are also other 'different' opinions regarding set up and care, especially from keepers in Australia.

Its soooo confusing

Marie x

I personally don’t and won’t use sand. The risks just outweigh the benefits to me. Beardies lick things to explore their surroundings. Each lick of the sand would just add more and more sand in their system and eventually it all adds up. Not only that, but they could get sand mixed up in their food and ingest it that way as well. The threat of impaction is very real and it scares me. I know some people swear by it and have never had any issues, to me they’re lucky. I know some people who have used it and wound up with a sick or dead beardie. It’s just not worth the risk to me.

It can be confusing. There are multiple opinions on every issue when it comes to beardies. At the end of the day we just have to do what our gut tells us. We need to use the varying opinions we see and go with our gut instinct on which way we’d prefer to go. For me, that means no sand. Ever.

 

[Zeusmybeardie]

Well I was thinking Eco earth because its better for burrows or holes or whatever he wants to make and it's like he's trying to dig under things which I wouldn't put anything in it with it because I would be scared of him getting crushed but what about that bird seed people use for uros? It would just be something to try and I am worried about impaction but there must be something safe and if he dosent use it like I imagine then it would be removed

 

[label]

I don't know if in the States you can get the book "A Guide to Australian Dragons in Captivity" by Dr. Danny Brown but it's a very comprehensive guide to keeping all the various Oz dragon species. The point he makes is that it's reasonable to match the enclosure environment to the natural one. Central bearded dragons live in the arid zone of central Australia and have evolved to live on sand. He does make the point that fine sand, like washed beach sand or play sand is safer than calci-sand or coarser substrates. He doesn't recommend sand for juvies, who are more vulnerable to impaction. Birdseed, which is larger, would probably be a greater hazard. We don't have Eco-earth here but central bearded dragons wouldn't be familiar with that substrate whereas eastern bearded dragons like we have in Victoria would be. But you do want something that helps keep their nails in trim, so something with texture is good.

I know there's no final answer to this--for some reason the northern and southern hemispheres just don't agree. Even here there's argument--the care sheet from the breeder who set up the Australian Bearded Dragon Forum (http://www.australianbeardies.net/forum/showthread.php?397-Central-Bearded-Dragon-Care-Sheet) first recommends sand, then mentions wood chips, which Danny Brown argues against. So I guess you can read up and make a call, knowing that someone somewhere agrees with you!

 

[Claudiusx]

The point he makes is that it's reasonable to match the enclosure environment to the natural one.

This is the kind of thinking I STRONGLY disagree with. Dragons live significantly rougher, tougher, and shorter lives in the wild. If we went out trying to duplicate their wild, we would be looking at keeping them alive for 2 years maybe, compared to the 10+ years we can get when housing them properly, safely, and in a healthy environment.

Dragons in the wild often go long periods of time without food. Should we do this too?
Dragons in the wild are exposed to tons of germs and parasites. Should we do this too?
Dragons in the wild are very stressed, and have to be aware of predators and birds overhead. Should we simulate this?

I think you get my point. The argument of "well its how it is in the wild" is crap to me, to be blunt.
Who is anyone to say you should try to mimic the wild but only the parts they choose. It is because no one can think of a DECENT GOOD REASON to house a dragon on sand. There IS NO BENEFIT. The "well they live in sandy areas in the wild" just doesn't cut it.

Just because someone agrees with you, doesn't mean it's a good idea. This is the internet, you can find anyone to tell you anything is a good idea.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

If you would like to add a good reason to house on sand other than "it's what it is like in the wild" than I am all ears.

Not trying to be argumentative here, it's just I hear this too often, and no one can ever back up their statement.

-Brandon

 

[label]

As I mentioned before, we use fake turf so I'm not overwhelmed by the need for sand. Lots of people who keep or breed bearded dragons note that they like to dig, and sand is a substrate that they can easily do this in. Our dragon has shown no such interest but if she did we'd certainly look at changing over, for the same reason that we give her things to climb.

But the "it's like in the wild" argument is a valid one and is one that Danny Brown uses in his book--the various species of dragon have evolved in specific areas and developed to match what's found there. Central bearded dragons need low humidity; easterns, who seem really similar, are adapted to higher humidity. Our southern angle-headed dragons, who evolved in a temperate rainforest, need cool temperatures and constant humidity and low UV. They thrive in conditions that would kill a beardie and vice versa. They're arboreal so they have lots of sticks to climb in a vertical enclosure. Our blue tongue really likes Kritter Krumble to burrow in but it would be a real impaction risk for a beardie. But unlike temperature and humidity, the choice of substrate isn't quite as critical, as long as it isn't something potentially lethal. I guess the answer is to go with whichever authority seems most convincing.

 

[DeweysMom]

The point he makes is that it's reasonable to match the enclosure environment to the natural one.

This is the kind of thinking I STRONGLY disagree with. Dragons live significantly rougher, tougher, and shorter lives in the wild. If we went out trying to duplicate their wild, we would be looking at keeping them alive for 2 years maybe, compared to the 10+ years we can get when housing them properly, safely, and in a healthy environment.

Dragons in the wild often go long periods of time without food. Should we do this too?
Dragons in the wild are exposed to tons of germs and parasites. Should we do this too?
Dragons in the wild are very stressed, and have to be aware of predators and birds overhead. Should we simulate this?

I think you get my point. The argument of "well its how it is in the wild" is crap to me, to be blunt.
Who is anyone to say you should try to mimic the wild but only the parts they choose. It is because no one can think of a DECENT GOOD REASON to house a dragon on sand. There IS NO BENEFIT. The "well they live in sandy areas in the wild" just doesn't cut it.

Just because someone agrees with you, doesn't mean it's a good idea. This is the internet, you can find anyone to tell you anything is a good idea.

-Brandon

I agree 100%. Man I wish we had a "like" button here.

Just another example. I'm not a fan of most zoos. I kind of frown upon keeping wild animals in captivity, BUT at the same time I can't deny the fact that when some (certainly not all) of these animals are provided for properly (mentally and physically), they live longer and healthier lives than they do in the wild. When they're allowed proper nutrition, medical care, etc that they don't get in the wild naturally it'll give them longer lives. Why wouldn't we want to do the same for our pets? It is our job to keep them safe and healthy afterall. To me, that includes not putting them on a substrate that has been proven to be unsafe.

 

[label]

I'm signing off this one but it is worth pointing out that most modern zoos try to replicate as closely as possible the beneficial aspects of animals' natural environments, as opposed to concrete and steel cages. Our beardie is happy on artificial turf but if she demonstrated a desire to dig, we'd try to accommodate this natural behaviour, just like she's got a big vertical log to sit on top of since beardies like to be able to survey their surroundings. It is everyone's option to ignore expert advice but there should be some justification besides asserting that you're right. Is there any evidence in the veterinary literature, for example, that adult bearded dragons kept with the correct temperatures, humidity and nutrition have any significant risk of impaction when kept on appropriate sand substrates? I do science for a living (nothing relevant to here) but one thing I've been taught is to go by evidence, not repeated assertions. In his book, Dr. Brown says "I use sand in enclosures housing virtually all arid or semi-arid species and for most non-rainforest arboreal species." I would at least give some credence to Australian vets and leading Australian breeders writing about the care of Australian lizards in captivity, but that's my choice; it doesn't have to be anyone else's.

In any event, I'm off this thread--it's way too much like a theological dispute. I think I'll start a new one about why we prefer the compact fluorescent lights--that shouldn't bother anyone! :wink:

 

[Claudiusx]

try to replicate as closely as possible the beneficial aspects of animals' natural environments

There are no benefits to a loose substrate. I gave you the opportunity to mention one and you have failed to do so.

Is there any evidence in the veterinary literature, for example, that adult bearded dragons kept with the correct temperatures, humidity and nutrition have any significant risk of impaction when kept on appropriate sand substrates? I do science for a living (nothing relevant to here) but one thing I've been taught is to go by evidence, not repeated assertions.

You kind of contradict yourself here. Why do you think we recommend what we recommend? Because enough people started saying it and it became true? Come on, let's be real here. It has come from the culminated experience of hundreds of owners on this site. Many of which (myself included) had been raising dragons for over a decade. We have been around long enough to see just about every situation you could ever imagine, at least a couple times. This is what I would consider and expert, someone who has focused study, experience, and knowledge in one particular subject; not someone who has friends in the publishing world, or is thought higher of simply for a title. Can you be an expert in multiple things? Sure. Do I believe you can be an expert to the point that you can make a book on every single reptile in Australia, HECK NO. You can have a general to above-general understanding of all these reptiles, but there is no way in Hell you could have dedicated as much time and energy into researching all those reptiles and bearded dragons, as some members here actually have. Simply for the fact that he has to know a little about a lot of stuff, and we here know a lot about a certain thing, bearded dragons.

TLDR: He is good on a general to above-general knowledge level on bearded dragons, but he is no where near an "expert." Albeit, I haven't read any of his books, so I'll give you that one.

Anyways, temperature, humidity, and nutrition would have nothing to do with sand impactions. Temperature affects the metabolic rate. You can't digest sand, which clearly means that heat has nothing to do with sand-impactions. Humidty... honestly have no clue how this would relate either. Nutrition wouldn't either, a healthy dragon isn't going to be able to magically unclog a sand filled digestive track better than a dragon fed a less healthy diet.

And to top it off, impaction risk is only ONE of the negatives of loose substrate. There is sanitation issues, particulates in eyes issues, cost of needing to constantly be replacing it, dust which can lead to RI's. There is literally no benefit, but a handful of negatives. Ask anyone at all if they would choose to do something that would give them no benefit at all, only risks, and see if they say yes they'd do it. It's asinine.

I don't give credit to someone just because they come from Australia, that is foolish in my book.
I am from the States and know absolutely nothing about Chevy trucks. But I do know a lot about Nissans, a Japanese company. Same could be said for a Japanese man knowing a lot about Chevy trucks. Who would you listen to for advice on a Chevy, me or the Japanese man? You get the point.

I give credit to where credit is due, not where it is assumed.

-Brandon

 

[Yaaeee]

Very controversial topic & the longer I'm on this site... The more I see that it's very "one minded" & group thought driven. While I agree the risk of Impaction wouldn't be something id risk with my 8 month old dragon and don't use loose substrate myself. I believe that if necessary precautions and care are taken it can be doable for some as I've seen healthy beardies through the years on loose substrate. But that's just my opinion. As we all have our own.


To the OP have you ever thought of having something similar to a lay box?

 

[Claudiusx]

I believe that if necessary precautions and care are taken it can be doable for some as I've seen healthy beardies through the years on loose substrate. But that's just my opinion.

And why do you believe this? Just because it sounds like it should make sense to you? Do you have any experience on the matter? This is exactly what the other person was talking about, it's all word of mouth instead of actual experience. Experience is the thing that matters, not opinions or thoughts; this site is full of experience and there literally is NO SINGLE GOOD REASON to house on a loose substrate. That is why we recommend against it.

-Brandon