Kazi - RIP my special Wee monkey.

[DragonMomSandy]

Christine, thats a tough choice on the vet. I would go back to the one he's been seeing, take all that info and the independant test results too. Let him know that you took the initiative to try to get as much info as possible as quickly as possible to save Kazi. If he is offended that you asked for additional help outside of his clinic, then look into the vet you had taken Pheobe to. I would skip the 3rd vet, he didn't sound terrible knowledgeable about herps when you took Abu to him-that would scare me away. Your current vet should be understanding of your desire to do whatever it takes to save a much loved pet.

As far as which ailment to treat first, I think it is really going to depend on just how high the quantities are of Salmonilla and the pinworms. The Aspergillus should probably be treated first though, and as Tracie said, for only a max of 3 weeks then 2 weeks off that med. While he is off the Itraconazole for a couple weeks, he could be treated for the pinworms. Regardless, it's a lot of dosing attempting to alternate treatments. I would be very hesitant to treat all of these at the same time, all those meds can be so harsh on them and combining them could be too much for him to handle. There is also the possibility, when treating with multiple meds, that one may prevent the other from working effectively. The Aspergillus will probably take several months to treat, so maybe the vet will choose to dose for the pinworms first. The salmonilla is commonly present, so it would really depend on just how high the levels have gotten to determine if it is a priority. Ask the vet also about the tapeworm. It's there, you know you've seen the shed from it, but it wasn't listed on the labs (I didn't see it anyway). Maybe they weren't looking specifically for it, but a broad spectrum test should have shown it.

Keep being persistant with the vet. Talk this all over with him and see how he responds and how willing he is to accept this added info. Any additional info should be valuable to him in an effort to treat Kazi. If he is stubborn about it tell him you will seek a second opinion. It's always your right to do so for the best interest of your animal. He was probably concerned that you were dropping him for another vet.

As far as how he got so ill, that was beyond your control. Whatever the original illness was, his weakened immune system opened him up for further illness. The pinworms can be caught from any live feeder-crickets are commonly the culprit. When they become ill, it is not uncommon to see secondary infection or other issues arise. And remember, they tend to not show any symptoms until illness is rather advanced, so it is often difficult to see that they are not feeling the best. So, don't go beating yourself up over it, it's not anything that you did that caused this. And, being an observent keeper like you are, you knew that something was not right early enough that it can be treated and you've worked very hard to get the info you need and to do whatever is necessary to get him healthy again.

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Oh, if you get the vet talked into the itraconazole, run the dosing info past Tracie first before giving it if you can. That way she can double check it. Be sure to include his current weight on the day of the vet visit.

 

[MissT]

Thank you Sandy, you always know how to make me feel a bit better..... I wish the appointment was sooner with the vet but there isnt much I can do about that. We are pretty much snowed in here as well! The vet I took abu to is apparently a herp vet but, when your pet has clearly died and he tells you she is still alive, you lose faith in their knowledge pretty quickly!

I have also been speaking with Janie (zebraflavencs) via email - she has been a brilliant help to, so I would just like to credit Janie for all the help she has given us that noone here has seen!

I have spent the last 2 hours scrubbing his viv - I ran out of the usual cleaner that I use and had to resort to a vinegar solution followed by a reptile disinfectant. Im going to put his tile and fav rock back in but for now his carpet and logs are staying out. The tiles and rock, I plan to clean every 2 days just to make sure he is living in a totally sanitary environment!

Once again, thank you Sandy, Gina and Tracie!!

 

[DragonMomSandy]

It sucks that you have to wait to see the vet. But your doing what you can for now. Janie is an awesome source of info too. She's great about sharing her knowledge too.

The vet that saw your Abu may be a herp vet, but that doesn't mean his a good herp vet. A vet with experience and who has kept this species is going to be much better than one who has not. Personal experience with these animals make for a better vet. I lucked out with my vet, she's absolutely awesome, has kept beardies for about 15 years and has bred them in the past. Wouldn't trust my brood to anyone else.

Keeping his viv clean like that will definately cut down on the possibility of re-infestation by more parasites that have passed from his system as well as preventing infection from multiplying. You can even go to using newspaper for a while, that way when their is poo, pull it out, quick clean, and deep clean every 2 days as you plan.

Let us know how the vet visit goes, I'm curious to see how he responds to the extra info.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Christine,

How is everything going today?
Excellent work everyone, we have such a terrific group of people on here all putting their time in willing to help a great dragon & owner.
When are you going back to the vet? I agree, go ahead & take him back to the one that has already done all of the tests. At least he seems to be trying to help & seems pretty knowledgeable. Just ask plenty of questions, & hopefully if he doesn't know, he will at least attempt to look it up to educate himself to try & find the answer.
Yes, if he does go ahead & prescribe the Itraconazole, let me know & I will get the dosing done for you. Did they give you a worm count at all?
It does depend on the level of the Salmonella as to whether it should be seriously looked at or treated. I do not recommend medicating with Baytril & Itraconazole at the same time as they are both nephrotoxic & could cause serious renal complications.
So, at the moment, I think the Aspergillus is probably the most threatening out of all of the ailments because it can quickly turn into a serious respiratory problem & go into pneumonia. That is where I would start first. If the fungus can get treated & killed then the worm count will naturally go down on its own & the Salmonella counts should lower as well since they are directly & proportionally related to the initial problem which is most likely the Aspergillus.

I hope everything is going well today. We are all pulling for him!

Tracie

 

[MissT]

Thanks again, Sandy!

I have also been keeping in touch with Sandi (pscaulkins) - Semi had a similar air bubble issue a few years back and we have been making some links - these latest results have given some further links between Semi and Kazi!

I worry with the newspaper that he will stress more tho - he sleeps on the tile thats why im planning to put it back in but only on one side of the viv -the other side is paper towel. I hate the thought of causing him even more stress - hes been in the 'hospital viv' today while I was cleaning and while the viv is drying and airing and he absolutely hates it... I hope to have him back in his home by bed time!!!

 

[DragonMomSandy]

You make a very valid point. He's used to the tile and switching to the newspaper could trigger one of the stress episodes. Sorry, thought it might make cleaning a little easier. The main thing is keeping it clean.

 

[MissT]

You make a very valid point. He's used to the tile and switching to the newspaper could trigger one of the stress episodes. Sorry, thought it might make cleaning a little easier. The main thing is keeping it clean.

Sandy, I had actually been planning to scrub and replace everything with something disposable - paper towel, cardboard basking spot etc etc but then when I thought about it and all his little stress episodes I had to come up with a way of keeping things clean without risking him becoming uncomfortable again.

At least he seems to be trying to help & seems pretty knowledgeable. Just ask plenty of questions, & hopefully if he doesn't know, he will at least attempt to look it up to educate himself to try & find the answer.

I have been thinking and I wonder was the vet being precautious of discussing the aspergillus because it isnt something he has dealt with before - perhaps he needs to do some research and that is why he didnt want to discuss it/cant see him until Thursday!

Hes back in his house now, fast asleep and looking totally adorable. Hes alert, active, eating (a reasonable amount) and still pooping regularly so he has definitely improved!!

Thanks again guys, for all of your input and support!

T

 

[puppytoes72]

Ive been gone for a few days and I just got caught up with your thread. Wow! Kazi sure is a trooper dealing with this stuff isnt he?? Considering all the stuff that he is dealing with he is doing pretty darn good,thank goodness he has you for a mommy!
It really ticks me off when you google any ailment or disease in a beardie and they all blame poor husbandry Gosh,if anyone knows how well you take care of your babies and how much you love them its US! So you stay strong and keep your head up because with your TLC Kazi will be as good as new in no time at all. :wink:
As for the vet I also think you should stick with your current vet for now AS LONG AS HE doesn't continue getting an attitude about you asking questions and doing your own research.
Maybe next time you talk to him you can start off by saying "You are a really great vet who has given Kazi awesome care and I hope you aren't offended by me doing some research on my own. Kazi is my baby and I just have so many questions and I have been so worried about him,I didnt want to bother you with every question. I think we could both learn from my extra research and by me getting these tests done on my own we have some more info to work with"

 

[MissT]

Thanks Michelle... considering everything, he is doing brilliantly - I hope he continues being the little fighter that he is!!! I was watching him tonight when I put him back in his pretty empty paper towel home and looking at him, you wouldnt think there were so many things going on in his little system. I am a little worried about his nose tho - i dont know if I am imagining it but the tip of his nose (just under 1cm of it) seems thinner than it used to be.... as tho there is no fat in that part of his nose. Now that im typing this I dont think it makes sense.... o well, just thought I would share!

I am trying to stay positive right now... hes a tought little guy! I just hope the vet comes up with something and that the treatment for everything goes smoothly!

I have to admit, I am a little hard on the vet.... I question everything he says, I want copies of everything he does.... hes probably not used to anyone being as obsessed!! Hes the only really acknowledged reptile vet anywhere close - the one I take Phoebe too is not very well known and the other guy (the one we took Abu to), only just moved here from England about a year ago - so I guess most people who see him just take his word for it!

 

[puppytoes72]

Were you able to find a new memory card for your camera yet? Maybe you can take a close up pic of Kazi's nose for us?

I know what you mean about hounding the vet with questions,you are afraid that he will think you don't trust him.
I feel quilty when I question Dr Sean,ask him for copies, and I tell him about treatments that I have heard about.After dealing with me for over 3 years he is used to it now.He takes it pretty well and he even razzes me. Right after Jojo's surgery he gave me the summary of how the operation went and told me that he was sending out a biopsy of her liver,then he brought me into the recovery room so I could see her.As I was leaving he said "now go home and rest and promise me that you won't GOOGLE tonight" :lol:
Im sure your vet will get used to it too and realize that it's not anything personal against him :wink:

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Here again is where I think I got pretty lucky with my vet. She will answer any and all questions, seems to appreciate that I take more interest in my animals than many others do and she's always open to discussion of any info that I have found elsewhere. I think that a good vet should be willing to discuss, in detail any and all info related to the case and treatment. When my first dragon, a big male (he was my baby), she went over every possibility, every option for treatments, showed me the histopathy done on the mass and explained it in detail, the same with the lab work and we compared notes on research we were both doing to try to save him. She spent hours online with other vets discussing the case and getting info from other vets who had also dealt with this and the treatments and expeted outcomes. Plus, she had dealt with the same thing in a dragon of her own several years before. I think if your vet is able to understand that you are looking for absolutely every bit of info you can get, willing to seek test results independantly and hoping to help him help your Kazi,then he will be worth staying with. If he takes a defensive stance, then I would seek other options. Give him the opportunity and hopefully he'll realize the combined efforts will be more successful.

Michelle is right, that article on mycotic disease, like many others, wants to point fingers at husbandry first. For anyone to jump to that assumption automatically is rather foolish. There are many factors that can play a role in illness with dragons and it can have absolutely nothing to do with husbandry at all. You take awesome care of your dragons, so there is NO DOUBT from anyone here about that! You are a good mommy and don't lose sight of that. And, Kazi is such a strong willed boy! He's a fighter so I think he will pull through this. You have gone to great lengths to get him well, no one could expect more!

 

[MissT]

Michelle is right, that article on mycotic disease, like many others, wants to point fingers at husbandry first. For anyone to jump to that assumption automatically is rather foolish. There are many factors that can play a role in illness with dragons and it can have absolutely nothing to do with husbandry at all. You take awesome care of your dragons, so there is NO DOUBT from anyone here about that! You are a good mommy and don't lose sight of that. And, Kazi is such a strong willed boy! He's a fighter so I think he will pull through this. You have gone to great lengths to get him well, no one could expect more!

I try to avoid reading articles that blame husbandry.... I have went over my set up thousands of times based on things I have read and each time, I find nothing wrong (except that I wish their houses were bigger). Any vet I have ever been too seems to think it is spot on (they look at me funny when I mention the tile but they cant fault me for that!)

I just spoke to my sister - she trained as a veterinary nurse but now works in rehabilitation at a sanctuary - she says, I should show him what I have found and insist that he treats for the aspergillus first - im perfectly within my rights to give my point of view.

I think the vet may give another dose of panacur on Thursday (single dose just like last time) - should I allow him to do that even if he agrees to treat the aspergillus?

 

[pscaulkins]

I would have his mouth cultured Christine. Aspergillus can easily contaminate the fecal. (i.e. they eat greens and poop out digested greens, perfect place for aspergillus to grow since aspergillus loves decomposed plant matter. If he has aspergillus in his mouth also, I would treat. I did not use the med recommended for killing it because I was told from my vet, it could very easily harm Semi and does not always kill it. BTW, Semi had RI symptoms is why I had his mouth cultured but his lungs were not filled and there were no mucus. We thought he had an infection in his mouth. What I used killed it and it didn't even leave scar tissue on his lungs. Right now Semi is my leanest beardie but the most active so I say it was a success even though he developed other issues that we finally got fixed. I just need to have another side view x-ray to see if his air bubble is gone. He has no symptoms of it nor no lumps like he did.

 

[MissT]

Thanks for that info Sandy! I will ask the vet about doing a culture on Thursday. I have read a lot about aspergillus and its relation to plants this weekend so that could be what has happened. As yet, Kazi has displayed no breathing issues, other than the strange hissing/choking sound he made the night we realised he was very sick!! That was a month ago.

He has had a great day today. Phoebe finally laid her eggs (poor girl) and throughout the whole time that she was laying Kazi did not move a muscle - he didnt even twitch - I swear that little guy senses things we dont, I was sitting talking to him, wondering why he was being so totally inresponsive and then I looked at Phoebe and realised what was happening. Within 5 minutes of her finishing, he came down from his log, crawled under it and went for a little snooze!! He is just TOOOOOO cute! But, at least now he will be getting some peace - she really has been driving him insane!

We are also now on night 7 without his getting stressed/uncomfortable!! Lets hope his night continues well - this will be the longest he has went without experiencing night time discomfort!!