Kazi - RIP my special Wee monkey.

[puppytoes72]

First of all you are NOT a bad mommy to Phoebe,you are just trying to make both your kids happy :wink:
I'm glad you figured out a way to let Kazi unwind before bed!

 

[Goonie]

Also I know your going to the vet for more Panacur but please ask him about the Droncit before he gets the Panacur,it is generally more effective then Panacur when dealing with Tapeworms and since he still has evidence of them in his poop it may be worth trying.

Yes, definitely ask about the Droncit before accepting more doses of Panacur. From what I understand, Droncit doesn't have as many harsh side effects as Panacur does (no runny poop, loss of appetite, grogginess). Also, it works wonders for getting rid of any and all evidence of tapeworms fast.

 

[MissT]

I read your thread about Buddy, Gina and, despite the fact that he is not a beardie, it did give me quite a bit of insight - your mention of the tapeworm shed meant that when I saw it on Sunday night, I knew exactly what it was.

Vicky, I will definitely be asking the vet about the possibility of using droncit - when I call to confirm the appointment I will mention it to him. I hate it when he realises I am possibly doubting him tho :s but he should know by now that im not gonna just accept what he says right away!

Well it does indeed make sense that Kazi would be a tad more wired with a gravid (or any female)above him(especially this time of year right after brumating).This is normal beardie behavior and is probably making your take on the issues hard to distinguish.

It is difficult - we dont know if hes hurting or if she is just winding him up or if the fact that she is qinding him up is making him stressed and causing the pain... She really is insane tho - I think we are noticing her more this time because he is noticing her and him being stressed is making us stressed and making us realise just how incessantly she scratches.

Today, we set up Kazi's baby viv as a 'lay-viv' for Phoebe - she never lays in her laybox so we put half dampish sand and half her reptile carpet with a little log. We put it in the living room so its a couple metres from him but even if he hears her it wont be anything like the noise he hears when she is 'upstairs'... it worked tho - within 5 minutes of her moving house, he was like his normal little self again. He bobbed and black bearded a little but thats all part of a normal day with Kazi... his tail returned to normal and stayed that way all day - other than when he was out waiting for his bath and could hear her scratching in the next room. So hopefully this little, temporary change, will keep him calm and he will be able to get enough rest during the day!!! Hes fast asleep now and could not look any cuter!!

First of all you are NOT a bad mommy to Phoebe,you are just trying to make both your kids happy :wink:
I'm glad you figured out a way to let Kazi unwind before bed!

Thank you Michelle - its hard not knowing what to do for the best for them both - and I am one of those mums who totally fuss over them!! But at least they both seem pretty happy now... hopefully it keeps up!!

 

[MissT]

We found Phoebe, in her little viv, about a half inch away from the light today - she managed to jump into the cage around the light fitting so we had to move her back into her big house this evening.... we cant mount the light on the outside as my mother in law looks after her 10 month old grand daughter, who is learning to walk, every afternoon and that could be a bit of a disaster!! Kazi got rather worked up until she went to bed - we will try tomoro to come up with another solution.

Anyway, I wanted to check - is it the drontal or the droncit I should be asking about and is that a tablet or a liquid? What sort of dosage should he be getting? I replaced the batteries in my scales as the vets scales weighed Kazi over 100g less than my scales did and it turns out that he is 560g - not 700g as I had thought he was!!!

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Sounds like you have figured out one of Kazi's stress triggers, and you'll get things worked out with Phoebe soon. Putting her to bed early at least gives him some time to de-stress before bed so he can sleep.

Droncit is what you want to ask the vet about. Common reptile dosage is: 5-8mg/kg, one dose, either by mouth (liquid) or by intramuscular injection, and commonly repeated in 2 weeks. So, based on Kazi's weight: 560gm is equal to 0.56kg at a 5mg/kg dose, that breaks down to approximately: 0.112mg by injection or orally. Run this dosage past Tracie (remember, I normally spend my day figuring childrens dosages based on mg/kg/day not really small animals-however the math is basically the same), it should be relatively close. I'm basing that on the 5mg/kg as I think the vet would choose to stay towards the lower mg range since he recently treated with the panacur.

Hang in there!

 

[MissT]

I called the vet today to confirm a time for appointment - I was planning to mention the droncit to him when he called me back but he didnt so I'm guessing he wasnt in the surgery at all today. Im sure he will call back tomoro and I can mention it to him then and see what he thinks - that way he will also have a day to think about this alternative!!

Phoebe was pretty calm today and went completely off her food - she SHOULD lay some time in the next 5 days.... she went 31 days between her first and second clutch - if she does the same this time, she should lay by Monday and then Kazi will be able to relax!! I really hope this is her last - the poor girl is too young and too skinny to keep this up! (but thats totally off topic!)

Kazi was pretty chilled all day today - he wasnt too bothered about Phoebe's noise today tho - he was too busy redecorating his viv with poop and salad (he hasnt done that in soooooooooooo long ) Yay!!!

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Kazi sounds like he had a pretty good day. He was active and messy, thats a good thing. Poor Pheobe, hope she lays those eggs soon, sounds like she needs some rest too.

 

[MissT]

Hey guys,

finally got the microbiology report!!! This was full parisitoloigy plus an aerobic culture of the fecal sample I sent off just before Christmas. I am going to write it out below so hopefully, you can give me some input about what it means before our vet visit!!

Here it is...

MICROBIOLOGY

Culture Aerobic cultures show a heavy mixed growth consistent
with normal faecal flora.

Salmonella POSITIVE
Confirmed Salmonella species Group F
Augmentin Sensitive
Ceftazidime Sensitive
Gentamicin RESISTANT
Amikacin RESISTANT
Enrofloxacin Sensitive
Marbofloxacin Sensitive
Doxycycline RESISTANT
Metronidazole RESISTANT

Campylobacter Negative
Yeasts POSITIVE (++) plus ++ Aspergillus niger
Direct MODERATE NUMBER OF NEMATODE ( pinworm ) OVA SEEN
Cryptosporidium Negative
Concentrate NUMEROUS AS ABOVE - No further ova,cysts or parasites
seen
*VETERINARY TREATMENTS REQUIRED*
Please show this report to your local exotic
veterinarian to obtain the relevant treatments and
advice.

Thanks guys!

Christina

 

[Goonie]

Kazi tested positive for salmonella AND aspergillus???? Oh my!

How had he been?

 

[MissT]

Well this sample was sent about a week after the vet visit when he had the x-ray and blood tests.... he wasnt too bad that week. Im totally freaking out at the minute tho!! Hes been great for the last couple of days!! I hope these things are treatable.... I looked up aspergillus on google and it has me totally panicking!!

 

[MissT]

I found this on treatment of aspergillus in reptiles - it seems like a good article.... if you have a look, let me know what you think. It suggests using itraconazole.

http://130.88.242.202/medicine/Aspergillus/articlesoverflow//19596677.pdf

 

[MissT]

Noone got anything? :?

The vet is unable to see Kazi tomoro... I am not really too happy but not much I can do - instead, he is going to see him next Thursday. I talked to him on the phone about the results - I could tell he was not too happy... my mention of sending off a fecal sample for tests was met with a flurry of questions - why did you do that? who did you send it to? what vet did you do it through? when were the tests carried out? etc etc... I explained that I did it because I wanted a culture and full parisitology report and that, due to the holidays and weather etc it was not really feasible for me to travel to the clinic when I could just pop a little pot in the post. I told him the lab name and that I didnt use a vet... I also mentioned that I did not think the date was important but that the tests were carried out last weekend according to the report.

I told the vet about the salmonella, aspergillus niger and pinworms. His reply was 'we will need to repeat that wormer then'. I told him I was very concerned about the aspergillus and he said that it was probably just secondary to the pinworm infestation. Im not happy with this 'diagnosis'.

Kazi is registered with another vet at a smaller practice, a little further away than the vet he has been attending recently. They do not have the set up that the current vet does but I always feel pretty content when I come out of there (they are the vets who treated Phoebe for her URI). I could go to see them BUT that would mean trying to explain why I have been taking the little guy to another vet and would they treat him considering the situation? I dont know what to do!! There is also another vet who Kazi is not registered with - this particular vet is much closer to home so I could use that reason for switching to him, but, I dont feel comfortable with him - he is the vet who saw Abu the night she died - the one who asked 'when did she lose the use of her limbs?' when she was clearly no longer with us! ARGH!!! Im so worried and so confused - I just dont know what to do!

 

[Goonie]

I so wish I could be of more help with the microbiology report, but I'm just not all that knowledgeable with mycotic diseases and their treatments. I did, however, find this:

Mycotic Diseases

Excessively high humidity, low environmental temperature, concurrent disease, malnutrition, and stress from poor husbandry may be factors in the development of mycotic diseases in reptiles. Little is known about the pathogenesis of systemic mycoses, which can develop over a long period, but maintaining good sanitation and husbandry reduces the frequency of infection. Aspergillus, Metarhizium, Mucor, Paecilomyces, and Penicillium spp are a few of the organisms that have been isolated from reptiles with systemic mycoses. Reports of successful treatment of systemic mycoses in reptiles are few. Suggested treatments for deep fungal respiratory infections include amphotericin B (5 mg/kg body wt, nebulized in 150 mL of saline for 1 hr, bid), and thiabendazole (50 mg/kg) and ketoconazole (35 mg/kg) in combination, administered PO, sid. For superficial or localized mycotic infections, surgical removal of the granuloma with local wound treatment is advised. Basidiobolus spp, pathogenic for mammals, are found in feces of normal reptiles.

Dermatophytosis has been described in all orders of reptiles. Geotrichum, Fusarium, and Trichosporon are the genera most frequently isolated. In most cases, cutaneous injury precedes a secondary fungal infection. Chelonians with fungal infections of the shell can be treated by local debridement and topical application of Lugol’s solution or povidone-iodine. Griseofulvin, at 20-40 mg/kg, PO, every 72 hr for 5 treatments, has been recommended for mycotic skin infections. Topical 1% tolnaftate cream has also been effective. Exposure to ultraviolet light also may be beneficial.

Ulceration of GI tissues has been associated with infections by Mucor and Fusarium spp. Chronic visceral granulomatous disease of liver, kidneys, and spleen has been caused by Metarhizium and Paecilomyces spp. Few signs other than weight loss are seen before death. Animals may continue to feed until a few days before death.

The most frequent sites of mycotic infection are the skin and respiratory tract. Metarhizium, Mucor, and Paecilomyces spp are frequent isolates. Aspergillus spp has been isolated from pulmonary lesions in the chuckwalla (Sauromalus obesus). Most infections involve granuloma or plaque formation with resultant signs of respiratory distress before death.

Candidiasis in large snakes has been treated with nystatin (100,000 U, PO, for 10 days).

[Source: The Merck Veterinary Manual]

Hopefully Tracie will be on here soon and offer her medical expertise.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Christina,

Sorry I didn't see this earlier.
That is an interesting report. The Salmonella is thought to be a common bacteria in the gut flora of most reptiles, in small amounts & not usually cause any adverse reactions or ill health affects. Though sometimes it can be hard to really diagnose & really confirm whether or not it is the cause of poor or ill health in the reptile. Baytril is normally what is used to help wipe this out, as it is a commonly used broad spectrum antibiotic, but there are a few others that could be used, as well.
As far as the Aspergillus, that is a yeast or fungal infection that is somewhat common. Already stated, Itraconazole would knock it out for the most part. Fungal infections are difficult to get rid of. They can manifest from a variety of things from high humidity or even excessively low humidity or other nutritional problems. It is an opportunistic bacteria/yeast so unfortunately if a reptile is ill or the immune system is compromised it is vulnerable to infection & other problems.
The Itraconazole is very effective, but can become nephrotoxic if not properly used & cycled. So, most of the time, it has to be given for no longer than 3 weeks at a time, & then given a 1-2 week rest period, then began again. This can take months to completely get rid of the yeast or fungus that is affecting her.
Are you going to a new vet then?

Tracie

 

[MissT]

Thank you Gina... that gave some treatment options - im printing out everything to take to the vet with me!

I dont know what to do about a new vet - with this vet having all of Kazi's history, it would be difficult to change, mid-illness so to speak. Im hoping that if I insist on Thursday, the vet will give me the itraconazole and we can treat for the fungus.... of course, im worried that he wont dose it correctly... but then I would worry about that with any vet over here.

Im curious as to where the tapeworm has gone on this sample tho!!

What should be my main priority with treatment? Should I be targeting the salmonella, the aspergillus and the pinworms all at once? Is the aspergillus or the pinworms the priority? Should I leave the salmonella (since it is already a common occurence)? I do have access to baytril if needs be.

My poor little man! I just cant understand how he got so sick!!!

T