Is it time to say goodbye?

[Beardiealice]

My beardie Alice was diagnosed with severe MBD a few months ago. She seemed to improve for a while, but she’s down again. She now has a large lump on one arm which might be gout. She will not eat on her own, even when she was doing better. She barely moves, and most of the time I have to move her to her basking spot (she just lays on the ground, cold). This has been her for 90% of the two years that I’ve had her. She was rescued from a family that kept her in a very small tank, no UVB for her first year. She only grew to up 6 or 7 inches. Then I rescued her from a different man who rarely (if ever) feels her anything other than pellets, had a poor UVB, and kept her tank way too cold. At four years, she is now 14 or so inches. She has very poor eyesight on her left side. She seems to have trouble digesting as it takes her days to pass a dose of Critical Care.

Her life seems...horrible. I could take her back to the vet, but what can the do? I will not do surgery. I will not do advanced/aggressive treatment. She has already gone through so much pain, I don’t want her to go through anymore. I’ve made so many mistakes...believing she was in brumation for several months when, in reality, she was dying. Starving because she won’t eat by herself. I’ve done my best to take care of her since, but it is exhausting. Giving her a half hour bath, force feeding her and seeing how much she hates it. Putting her back in her tank for her to lay so still.

I don’t want to consider euthanizing her. It makes feel as if I’ve failed her. But what is worse, accepting that, or keeping her alive to go through her painful life? I’m also scared I’m tired and will chose it out of exhaustion. I do not want to give up on her. She’s made a lot of improvements. But the fact that she will not eat by herself, has trouble doing it because of her eye, is so tired most days, just keeps coming back. I don’t want to make the wrong choice.

I get paid next week. I need to make the decision by then. Vet or euthanasia. I hate it. I love her so much.

 

[Claudiusx]

I'm sorry! I know it's a hard thing to go through for the both of you. I always try to tell people who are feeling down that they can find comfort in knowing that they tried, even if they end up unsuccessful.

It's really a personal decision that you have to make yourself. Gout can be very painful for them, but there are also dragons who live with gout and partial blindness and other issues.

It comes down to quality of life imo. If you believe she is suffering, and you or the vet dont think that will end, it might be best to pick letting her go.
I also understand the mentally draining part of taking care of sick dragons like that.

Either way, we feel for you two. Good luck with your decision.

-Brandon

 

[KarrieRee]

I would see if it is gout and yes it is painful-- there are meds for it and it can be treated and kept under control w/ the right diet- is she so weak she cant eat and that is why the force feeding--- will she eat from your hand? I would wait and see if it is gout although I dont know how it could be as it is usually caused by high protein -- has she been eating alot of protein to cause the gout? I am not sure why she is not moving unless it is the MBD that is causing her not to move ---- did you get her lighting straightened out so she could improve? I would of thought the better UVB would of helped --- are you giving her calcium ? I hate to see you put her down as she is only 4 -- maybe some others can give you some advice as to what to do or make suggestions---- it saddens me to think of her being put down so young and maddens me that others took so less care of her in the beginning of her life
Karrie

 

[Beardiealice]

I would see if it is gout and yes it is painful-- there are meds for it and it can be treated and kept under control w/ the right diet- is she so weak she cant eat and that is why the force feeding--- will she eat from your hand? I would wait and see if it is gout although I dont know how it could be as it is usually caused by high protein -- has she been eating alot of protein to cause the gout? I am not sure why she is not moving unless it is the MBD that is causing her not to move ---- did you get her lighting straightened out so she could improve? I would of thought the better UVB would of helped --- are you giving her calcium ? I hate to see you put her down as she is only 4 -- maybe some others can give you some advice as to what to do or make suggestions---- it saddens me to think of her being put down so young and maddens me that others took so less care of her in the beginning of her life
Karrie

She has been on Carnivore Care for 3 or 4 months. Could that cause gout? Her lighting was fine in the beginning, she just spent months over in the side of her tank without uvb. She also had no uvb for the first 2 years. Should I be giving her calcium with cc? She used to be unable to use her left arm and it was super swollen, but she can walk now with a small limp. This is the arm with the bump. I cause all of her joints had turned to mush. She will not eat at all. Unless she tastes it first, she won’t even lick it off her nose. She’s always been very hard to feed. She came to me at 13 inches and 80 some grams. She is now in the 300s. I’m scared she just has so much damage....my baby.

 

[Claudiusx]

The carnivore care is high in protein. I'd switch to critical care or a herbivore supplement instead. It should help with the gout.

-Brandon

 

[KarrieRee]

I was thinking that too --- if it is gout--- and it could be ---- your vet will tell you and you can decide on meds for her to get it under control and check the herbivore and see what the calcium level is and if its enough w/ just the herbivore or you can get liquid as well if its not enough --- I would think that would help w/ her mobility-------is she laying under her UVB? I think Tracie can help alot w/ alot of this stuff and give you advice as to her care and what you can do --------------- you can always PM her and get her advice ---- but I am so sorry she is going thru this and you too - we all dont want to see our pets suffer ---- or go thru this type of stuff ---
Karrie

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

So sorry to hear about Alice having such a hard time. It is very traumatic for you both I'm
sure.
Do you have any pictures of her? If you can post some, it would help us see her physical
condition.
Can you review your tank setup with us also, just to get an idea how things are setup also.
Have any of the vets not tested her for gout, by either a blood test or by x-rays?
The critical care powdered formula is very high in protein yes so that can have a large affect
on dragons' kidneys. Also, it is made with genetically modified corn & soy products which
damage organ function too.
I would change out her foods, to chicken or turkey baby food, mixed with sweet potato baby food
& or squash baby food. What supplementation products do you use for her?
At the very least, before deciding to put her down, try to get a blood test to see what you are
dealing with. They can be very resilient & surprise us all. Many times, when they develop
metabolic bone disease their health declines due to poor GI motility & absorption which will
cause other health problems, too.

Tracie

 

[Beardiealice]

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Hello,

So sorry to hear about Alice having such a hard time. It is very traumatic for you both I'm
sure.
Do you have any pictures of her? If you can post some, it would help us see her physical
condition.
Can you review your tank setup with us also, just to get an idea how things are setup also.
Have any of the vets not tested her for gout, by either a blood test or by x-rays?
The critical care powdered formula is very high in protein yes so that can have a large affect
on dragons' kidneys. Also, it is made with genetically modified corn & soy products which
damage organ function too.
I would change out her foods, to chicken or turkey baby food, mixed with sweet potato baby food
& or squash baby food. What supplementation products do you use for her?
At the very least, before deciding to put her down, try to get a blood test to see what you are
dealing with. They can be very resilient & surprise us all. Many times, when they develop
metabolic bone disease their health declines due to poor GI motility & absorption which will
cause other health problems, too.

Tracie

She has a 55 gallon tank. Her UVB is a t5 10.0 reptisun bulb. Her basking spot is about 98 degrees. When she went to the vet in the spring, she received fluids and got an X-ray. The vet only diagnosed MBD, however, Alice was also grossly emancipated and dehydrated. The vet was extremely tentative to say she would recover. I use the recommended vitamins (can’t remember the names right now, but I got them from the beginner set up guide). I have not given these to her while she was on cc. I’ll pick her up some baby food from the store tomorrow or Monday (I work really late tomorrow).

 

[kingofnobbys]

She doesn't look that far gone to me. If she's still able to get about, thermoregulate, pooing regularly, interacting/enjoying QT with you, she's still got some quality in her life. I'd be very reluctant to euthanize an dragon unless it's past the point of no return and has no quality in it's life.

Very slight blacking in the beard, might just be a shadow.

I'd talk to the vet about her prognosis and developing a treatment plan , maybe anti-inflammatories / painrelief.

 

[KarrieRee]

Yes to me she looks okay as well -- and I am not a vet expert but she does not look like she has gout either--- when you touch her does she flinch? Does she act like shes in pain when you touch her pick her up ? I am a diabetic and have had gout before and it is extremely painful so --- I would be reluctant let her go at this point and let Tracie get a look
Karrie

 

[Beardiealice]

She doesn't look that far gone to me. If she's still able to get about, thermoregulate, pooing regularly, interacting/enjoying QT with you, she's still got some quality in her life. I'd be very reluctant to euthanize an dragon unless it's past the point of no return and has no quality in it's life.

Very slight blacking in the beard, might just be a shadow.

I'd talk to the vet about her prognosis and developing a treatment plan , maybe anti-inflammatories / painrelief.

That’s the thing. She doesn’t poop very often, rarely moves into her basking spot herself, will not eat, and she’ll do little more with me than shift uncomfortably when I pick her up. The most reaction she has (other than that) is maybe opening her one eye.

Yes to me she looks okay as well -- and I am not a vet expert but she does not look like she has gout either--- when you touch her does she flinch? Does she act like shes in pain when you touch her pick her up ? I am a diabetic and have had gout before and it is extremely painful so --- I would be reluctant let her go at this point and let Tracie get a look
Karrie

Sometimes she flinches, but I think it’s because she’s a bit surprised I’m touching her. She is not a fan of me moving her arms because she’ll resist me stretching them out (I wanted to see if she could).

Before I make any decision, she is going to the vet. I have yet to make an appointment, but I’ll be doing that today.

 

[Claudiusx]

That's a good choice. The vet should help give you some clarity.

-Brandon

 

[kingofnobbys]

She doesn't look that far gone to me. If she's still able to get about, thermoregulate, pooing regularly, interacting/enjoying QT with you, she's still got some quality in her life. I'd be very reluctant to euthanize an dragon unless it's past the point of no return and has no quality in it's life.

Very slight blacking in the beard, might just be a shadow.

I'd talk to the vet about her prognosis and developing a treatment plan , maybe anti-inflammatories / painrelief.

That’s the thing. She doesn’t poop very often, rarely moves into her basking spot herself, will not eat, and she’ll do little more with me than shift uncomfortably when I pick her up. The most reaction she has (other than that) is maybe opening her one eye.

Yes to me she looks okay as well -- and I am not a vet expert but she does not look like she has gout either--- when you touch her does she flinch? Does she act like shes in pain when you touch her pick her up ? I am a diabetic and have had gout before and it is extremely painful so --- I would be reluctant let her go at this point and let Tracie get a look
Karrie

Some are like that see this : my Toothless and Peppa , viewtopic.php?f=6&t=245864&p=1868660&hilit=pooing+interval#p1868660



Sometimes she flinches, but I think it’s because she’s a bit surprised I’m touching her. She is not a fan of me moving her arms because she’ll resist me stretching them out (I wanted to see if she could).

<<< she may have an injury that's causing the pain, ask the vet to check how she crawls and maybe some Xrays will show up an injury ( dislocated join in the knee, elbow, hip or shoulder)

Before I make any decision, she is going to the vet. I have yet to make an appointment, but I’ll be doing that today.

 

[Beardiealice]

I picked up some baby tonight, but the sweet potato turkey one has a small amount of whole grains in it. Will that be okay? I gave her 2 tsp of turkey and then 2 tsp of butternut squash with vitamins and calcium mixed in.

Her left eye is swollen, and she won’t open it.

Since I’ll probably have to get an X-ray at the vet, I’ll have to wait until next week to bring her in. They’re pretty speedy.

She hasn’t passed cc that she got 5 days ago. Should I be worried?

You know, I’m really proud of her. She’s holding up her own head in her bath. There was a very scary time when she wouldn’t do that, and an even worse moment when she only shifted herself when I leaned her on her back (my friend and I rushed her to the emergency vet right away). But now, even though she is in pain, her arms swollen, a large lump on her elbow, a swollen eye, slowly recovering MBD, and who knows what else, she is holding her head up. She’s a fighter. It frightens me.

 

[Claudiusx]

They are tough creatures that is for sure!

I wouldn't worry too much about the BM, it can take them awhile to pass things, especially older dragons, especially older dragons going through some health issues!

Thats good that shes holding her head up!

-Brandon