Eating very little + Gout

[MommyOfDragons]

Alright . . . took her to a different vet. They did a blood test - she has gout. I don't know how this could have happened. She's only 6-7 months old so the vet was stumped. We're waiting for fecal results right now. I'll also ask for a copy of all the results.

Currently, she is 59 grams and 10.5 inches long.

Meds:
Allopurinol
Essential Fatty Acids
Rehmannia Eight Combo
Tramadol
Immune Supporter
Liquid Calcium Gluconate

I emailed Dr. and asked how much black cherry extract to give her because there's already some BCE in the Rehmannia Eight supplement.

Earlier this week, I found her on her side balancing on her left limbs with her right limbs in the air, stiff. It was like a ninja/matrix move. I didn't see her leaning against anything. I have no idea how she ended up like that. I tipped her back onto her belly and she acted like nothing happened. Last night she was up against the glass (pictures attached). I'm guessing she fell off her hammock, landed against the glass, and couldn't flip herself over because of how stiff she is.

She's also opening her mouth a lot. It is on the hotter side (100 degrees F), my other beardie is opening his mouth too, so I'm going to change it out for a 75 watt bulb, but it's different. She's not keeping her mouth open for a period of time like he is. She opens and closes like she's yawning. Every 5 seconds.

She's also sleeping a lot because, ya know, the tramadol makes you sleepy.
I hope she gets better soon.

 

[MommyOfDragons]

 

[AHBD]

Poor thing, I think that is a reaction to the Tramadol, try giving her a bit less. Are her legs still swollen ? Can you post pics of them ?

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Poor thing, I think that is a reaction to the Tramadol, try giving her a bit less. Are her legs still swollen ? Can you post pics of them ?

These pictures were taken just a few hours ago...

 

[MommyOfDragons]

I'm sorry to hear she's running into further issues. The T5 should be quite good in a tank that size. How is her weight? Weighing her is probably the best way of measuring growth rather than comparing her to another dragon which can be deceptive. The wavy tail doesn't sound good. Which supplements are you using? I think a fecal test is a good idea. $67 is more than I pay for a fecal test but the prices vary quite a lot depending on location so it's still probably worth it. Can you post some current photos of her and her setup? It may also be worth moving their tanks so they aren't within sight of eachother although if neither of them are showing aggression or interest in eachother then it may not be a problem.

Finally dropped off a fecal sample. I'm waiting for the results. Her blood results were already analyzed and there's a high level of uric acid (so she has gout).

I removed her rock because she fell off it before because her arms were/are pretty stiff and she was opening her mouth a lot so I figured she was too hot being that close to the bulb. She's pretty close to the ground now and she's still opening her mouth. I feel like she's having a hard time breathing. Is there a way to post a video here? I recorded the way she opens her mouth. It's like she's yawning every 5 seconds and then takes a gulp. It also sounds like her mouth is too dry. She will only drink water if I put a teaspoon measure in front of her face (today she drank at least a quarter teaspoon of water). Oh, and she got a subcutaneous fluid injection at the vet's office last night.

She also only ate 8 bite-sized pieces of collard greens today - and I kind of forced her to eat that. When she would "yawn", I placed a collard green piece in her mouth, when she closed her mouth, she just ate it - and she wouldn't eat any wax worms, hornworms, or roaches. Speaking of roaches, I read that excess protein in the insect's body turns to uric acid, therefore, the uric acid load is being consumed by the dragons obviously. The guy I would get my roaches from fed the roaches dog food so that definitely doesn't help with the gout. Since then, I've set up my own roach colony and I feed them apples, carrots, oranges, collard greens, and cricket gut load powder.

Ever since I brought her home from the store, she's had those stress marks on her belly. After being on the tramadol, her belly is white for the most part. So I think she's been in pain ever since I got her.

Feb 27, she was 46 grams, and April 27th she was 59 grams. I don't think she looks anorexic, just small for her age. She's pretty weak though - just waddles on her tummy when she wants to move and she drags her front arms. I hope my poor baby gets better soon. I know it will take a while for the allopurinol to show results, but I still hope for a speedy recovery. I feel like I'm torturing her by giving her 6 medications daily. My boyfriend says we should just put her down, but if there's a chance that she can get better, I at least want to try.

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Also, random question, is it normal for bearded dragons to sleep with their head up like this? It's hard to see it in the pic where my beardie is on his log, his name is Biggie Smalls, but he is propped up on his arms and his head is in the air. Same thing with my girl, Fancy Pants, who is under her log. I'm glad my boyfriend and I finally agreed on names, haha, we're going to have an even harder time picking names for our human children!!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I hate to hear that she has gout, so young.
What is the dose of allopurinol you are giving, do you know?
The Reptisun 10 T5 tube is on top of the screen? How far from the basking spot is it? I wondering if she is getting enough UVB through the screen though? Can you post more pics of how the tube bulb looks on top of the screen etc, with respect to the distance from the basking spot she is at?
She shouldn't be developing MBD with the use of that bulb. How often are you giving her the liquid calcium?
Dubias are very high in protein. I would try to keep her limited on those & go with lower protein sources like crickets, silkworms, butterworms or hornworms. Alfalfa meal has been shown to help provide a good source of protein along with lowering uric acid, naturally.
They can sleep in odd ways. I have seen them sleep with their heads up before. Sometimes it's an indicator of respiratory issues, but not always.

Tracie

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Hello,

I hate to hear that she has gout, so young.
What is the dose of allopurinol you are giving, do you know?
The Reptisun 10 T5 tube is on top of the screen? How far from the basking spot is it? I wondering if she is getting enough UVB through the screen though? Can you post more pics of how the tube bulb looks on top of the screen etc, with respect to the distance from the basking spot she is at?
She shouldn't be developing MBD with the use of that bulb. How often are you giving her the liquid calcium?
Dubias are very high in protein. I would try to keep her limited on those & go with lower protein sources like crickets, silkworms, butterworms or hornworms. Alfalfa meal has been shown to help provide a good source of protein along with lowering uric acid, naturally.
They can sleep in odd ways. I have seen them sleep with their heads up before. Sometimes it's an indicator of respiratory issues, but not always.

Tracie

Hi Tracie,

The allopurinol (100 mg tab) is formulated to 20mg/ml; 1 tab in 5ml diluent
I'm giving 0.06 ml every 24 hours. Uric acid levels will be rechecked in 14-30 days.

The calcium gluconate (0.06 ml) is also administered every 24 hours.

Yes, the T5 (with reflector - that's a reflector, right?) is on top of the screen. Screen holes are bigger than my other dragon's actually. I'll get him a T5 soon, he currently has a T8, but sits 4 inches away from it half of the day.

She used to have a tree in her tank where she lounged about 5 inches from the screen/lights. Then when she was losing mobility, I removed it. The skull rock and hammock that she basked on was about 10 inches from the lights. And now that I've removed the rock and lowered the hammock so she doesn't have a long fall, she would lay on the hammock which is now about 14 inches away from the lights. The last 3 days, though, she's been sleeping under her log during the day (from the tramadol most likely).

 

[MommyOfDragons]

UPDATE AFTER FECAL EXAM:

She has a large load of coccidia parasites / flaggela protazoa. I'm pretty sure she's had it since I brought her home from Petsmart. So that means she's had them for at least 4 months, I don't know how bad the damage is. The doctor is prescribing an antibiotic, which will further strain her kidneys unfortunately. I've got another appt in a few hours. She'll be getting another subQ fluid injection, along with a mouth swab to check for adenovirus. Due to her being so young, he believes her compromised kidneys are congenital. I'll be feeding her with carnivore critical care and I'll just mix the whole pharmacy of meds in with it. I told him she definitely looks drugged so we're cutting the tramadol dose in half (so .015 mls twice a day). If she doesn't improve within the next week . . . I think I'm going to put her down . . I feel so bad for her. I'm so afraid that as I'm giving her the meds, that I'm going to accidentally push too much in and she'll breath it into her lungs.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How far is the light & T5 light from her with it resting on top of the screen, 14 inches?
Maybe try mounting the T5 underneath of the screen, for more UVB exposure for her.
Has she improved at all?
I don't agree with placing her on more antibiotics. That will cause too much stress on
her kidneys. What is he putting her on antibiotics for, the coccidia? I would suggest
treating just the coccidia first, but treat it with Toltrazuril or Ponazuril (same thing),
but not Albon. It is easier on the kidneys & only has to be given a couple of times.
Has the tramadol made her worse? What is she on the tramadol for, pain relief?
The .06ml is correct for the allopurinol which is dosed at 20mg/kg.
Hopefully the gluconate will help out also. Does she have calcium issues too?
I agree, the kidney issues are likely from inbreeding, unfortunately. Though, there is
a possibility she will improve, but it does take some time. How long has she been on
the allopurinol now?
Do you have a copy of the blood tests also?
I hope she is feeling better soon!

Tracie

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Hello,

How far is the light & T5 light from her with it resting on top of the screen, 14 inches?
Maybe try mounting the T5 underneath of the screen, for more UVB exposure for her.
Has she improved at all?
I don't agree with placing her on more antibiotics. That will cause too much stress on
her kidneys. What is he putting her on antibiotics for, the coccidia? I would suggest
treating just the coccidia first, but treat it with Toltrazuril or Ponazuril (same thing),
but not Albon. It is easier on the kidneys & only has to be given a couple of times.
Has the tramadol made her worse? What is she on the tramadol for, pain relief?
The .06ml is correct for the allopurinol which is dosed at 20mg/kg.
Hopefully the gluconate will help out also. Does she have calcium issues too?
I agree, the kidney issues are likely from inbreeding, unfortunately. Though, there is
a possibility she will improve, but it does take some time. How long has she been on
the allopurinol now?
Do you have a copy of the blood tests also?
I hope she is feeling better soon!

Tracie

At first, she was only about 5 inches away from the T5. As her mobility declined, I took out the tallest items. Currently, she is sitting 14 inches away from the UVB and basking bulbs. I will mount the T5 inside (with zip ties I guess).

She hasn't really improved too much. She's dragging her front legs behind her, she gets around by using her back legs to slide on her tummy. A few mornings ago, I found her on her back (pictured below) - don't know how long she was in that position. She's gained 3 grams since I started feeding her with a syringe. She still has no interest in food or eating on her own.

The antibiotic was to be used to rid the parasites. The vet and I discussed the additional damage it could cause to her kidneys. I suggested grapefruit seed extract, bee pollen, and colloidal silver. I am very interested in giving her the colloidal silver. He said he'd discuss dosage with a fellow vet. How much would you suggest? I want to start using it on her asap (It's taking the vet a while to get back to me). Do you think the toltrazuril would be better than the colloidal silver? I have Sovereign Silver brand 10ppm. She is now 62 grams.

The tramadol was only used for pain relief and it made her suuuper sleepy. I haven't given it to her in the past 24 hours because I want to see if she gets some energy back. All she does is sleep now - even when I'm trying to feed her with the syringe, she closes her eyes. I feel so bad for her.

I wasn't told that she had calcium issues, but she was barely eating her food and we all know that calcium is important for growth so I assume he gave it to me since she wouldn't get it from solid foods (and sorry, it's actually calcium glubionate... never heard of glubionate). Her blood will be rechecked for the uric acid level in a week or 2 so I'll make sure to bring up calcium levels.

She started on the allopurinol the night of May 2nd. Once the vet gets back to me, I'll request that the test results be emailed to me.

My beardie has also been opening her mouth a lot. At first I thought she was hot, but I've experimented with basking temperatures and she still does it no matter the temp. At night when she's sleeping, too, she'll open her mouth and take a breath. There's no excess saliva or mucous around her nose. Do bearded dragons get ear infections? She opens her mouth for 2 seconds while sticking her tongue up and out, then swallows with a big gulp. I showed the vet's nurse a video of it and at first she thought my beardie was angry and just opening her mouth to scare us, but then she just said bearded dragons suck in air to appear bigger. . . Recently, it looks like my beardie sneezes, but there is no noise or "choo!" sound - it's just the motion of the head and her squinting her eyes - she only does this when I feed her by syringe. I only squirt 0.02mls of her critical care/meds concoction in her mouth at a time and I aim it on the side of the tongue, not the throat. Also, the esophagus region inside of her throat is black, is it supposed to be black? I have tried looking for inner throat anatomy pictures and can't find any on google. Please tell me it's supposed to be black. Or maybe it was just so dark that it looks black to me . . .I'll take another look.

 

[traildrifterphalanx]

That poor little baby
I don't have any advice to give, but I hope this is all figured out. That poor thing

 

[EllenD]

I'm so sorry she is going through this...I don't have anything to add except #1 it takes reptiles a long time to show improvement, and just because she isn't showing improvement right now doesn't mean she's not improving, so please give the gout treatments some more time before making any harsh decisions. While a person, dog, cat, etc. may recover or show improvement in a week of treatment, a reptile needs a month to show the same improvement...And #2, please listen to Tracey and follow her advice about the gout and parasites, and give her advice a chance, as she is the resident expert on successfully treating gout!

 

[MommyOfDragons]

I'm so sorry she is going through this...I don't have anything to add except #1 it takes reptiles a long time to show improvement, and just because she isn't showing improvement right now doesn't mean she's not improving, so please give the gout treatments some more time before making any harsh decisions. While a person, dog, cat, etc. may recover or show improvement in a week of treatment, a reptile needs a month to show the same improvement...And #2, please listen to Tracey and follow her advice about the gout and parasites, and give her advice a chance, as she is the resident expert on successfully treating gout!

Thanks. I hope she gets better too. I just want my little Fancy Pants to be happy. It breaks my heart seeing her lie there with her eyes half open all day. I have read that allopurinol works well and takes a while to see results. I know Tracey is very knowledgeable (I have read past threads) and do accept her advice graciously.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Oh the poor little one. I am so sorry she keeps flipping. Maybe you could take the hammock out or anything else that she has to climb on to help reduce her flipping?
How often do you find her like that?
Do you have a copy of the blood tests I could see?
The calcium glubionate is commonly used & prescribed for calcium deficiencies so that should be helping out for her.
Can you post a new pic on the bulb placement, were you able to get it mounted underneath of the screen now?
As mentioned, unfortunately it does take awhile for them to make a turnaround & begin to improve.
Their systems are very unique & specialized. Try to give her a little more time, as she is young & hopefully she can begin to improve.
The Toltrazuril would be much better to give for coccidia than Albon. Can he give that instead?
As far as the bee pollen, grapefruit extract & colloidal silver they can all be given to help out for immune system. The Sovereign Silver is a good brand, at 10ppm. I would say you could give .5ml to 1ml daily or every other day, for a few weeks, then cycle off a week or so then start again.
The allopurinol does take awhile to work but it is highly effective so give it a bit of time to show some progress.
I am glad you took her off of the tramadol, it can be hard on them.
The back of the throat shouldn't be black no. Could it be any stuck food possibly? Is her breathing labored at all? They can get inner ear infection, yes. I hope she doesn't have a respiratory infection. It sounds like you are syringing the food/fluids correctly through the side of her mouth.
Have you had her tested for Adeno also? Sorry if I missed that somewhere.


Tracie