Do YOU think Beardies Can Love You?

[CaptainVimes]

It is a proven scientific fact that BDs, has been previously mentioned, and this is characteristic of most reptiles, have a severely underdeveloped portion of the brain (pretty much to the point of non-existence.). If my memory serves me right, called the Hypothalamus, which governs among other things, emotion & are therefore physically incapable of feeling such an emotion as 'Love'.

Either you are completely wrong in identifying it as the hypothalamus...

Or bearded dragons AND other reptiles suffer GREATLY in the following areas:

pituitary gland regulation              
blood pressure regulation                  
hunger and salt cravings 
feeding reflexes                           
thirst                                               
body temperature regulation
hydration                                    
heart rate                                         
bladder function 
water preservation                       
hormonal/neurotransmitter regulation   
ovarian function 
testicular function
mood & behavioral functions                
wakefulness  metabolism                                
sleep cycles                                     
energy levels

If you still argue that a reptile has virtually NO hypothalamus, What part in the reptile's brain, controls all these other functions?

I don't believe that we are SO DIFFERENT to reptiles, that their BRAIN CONTROLS ALL OF THESE OTHER FUNCTIONS, IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PART OF THE BRAIN, TO HUMANS.

(source: http://www.incrediblehorizons.com/balance-Hypo%20function.htm )

You must be thinking of a different part, surely?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not arguing that a reptile DOES have human emotions, (I will still continue to believe Dexter prefers me to anyone else) I am simply querying your accuracy in naming the part of the brain.

 

[Germ]

If my memory serves me right, called the Hypothalamus, which governs among other things, emotion & are therefore physically incapable of feeling such an emotion as 'Love'.

My memory isn't always the best, but I'm pretty sure it is correct here, although I have been known to err on occasion & may possibly have the name wrong. And here we go again, trying to compare a human Brain to a reptiles, trying to humanize them. They don't/can't love their own, not even their own offspring, would be giving a whole new meaning to, "Oh, I 'Love' you so much I could just Gobble you Up!", humanize that if you will.

I have no doubts that Dexter prefers you to other humans. They Know their food source, who/what they are familiar/safe with, that their own Dominant instinct is not telling them to destroy or lunch on.
I simply gave my opinion & stated it as such, do with it as you will

.

G.

Edit of Edit: instinct is not telling them to destroy or lunch on.

 

[CaptainVimes]

If my memory serves me right, called the Hypothalamus, which governs among other things, emotion & are therefore physically incapable of feeling such an emotion as 'Love'.

My memory isn't always the best, but I'm pretty sure it is correct here, although I have been known to err on occasion & may possibly have the name wrong. And here we go again, trying to compare a human Brain to a reptiles, trying to humanize them. They don't/can't love their own, not even their own offspring, would be giving a whole new meaning to, "Oh, I could just Gobble you up with 'Love", humanize that if you will.

G.

No, I just simply stated that they can't be THAT different to a human brain as evolution hasn't been going on for that long, a lot of the functions in the list are PARAMOUNT TO ANY LIVING CREATURE!

I have not once said that reptiles love humans, I was simply showing you what a hypothalamus does in a human, and as I said...

Evolution has not been going on for long enough, for reptiles to have a completely different part of their brain doing them all, instead of the "hypothalamus".

So in this case, if you would like to step off your pedestal for a moment...

Maybe you are wrong in calling the lacking part of a reptile brain, the hypothalamus?

I never said that a reptile was a human, or anything of the sort. I'm just looking at it on an evolution point of view.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and God created everything in his likeness instead?

 

[Germ]

Sorry, was editing my post, as you were replying. And did say that I may be wrong with the name, but don't think so. Unsure as to where you are getting the pedestal crap. Gave my opinion, & again, stated it as such, just like you & everyone else, do with it as you will

.

Enough said.
Germain

 

[PumpkinJelly]

A very heated discussion, huh? Dont let it turn into a fire though!

 

[PicosParent]

CaptainVimes, I say that all of us who are loving enough to be able to appreciate the love our dragons show us thank our lucky stars We KNOW what we are shown and we appreciate it and just think how lucky our dragons are to feel our love and know that we feel theirs in return. The world takes all kinds of people to function and we all learn from each other but there are people who are very open and receptive and there are those who are closed and cautious.........just like their are folks who are Democrats and folks who are Republican. Folks who refer vanilla and folks who prefer chocolate.....I know this Liberal, vanilla loving gal is blessed to have a lizard who shows just as much love and affection toward me as I do to him and in the long run, that's all that matters....someone with a different mindset is not going to take away the joy my Pico brings me

 

[PumpkinJelly]

PicosParent: That's so cute


Of course, everyone, there is nothing wrong with believing your Beardie loves you. We are 100% sure that we love them, and some may find it comforting to feel that their Beardie loves them back.

I believe that my Beardie "likes" me or at the least, "tolerates" me. I mean, they can certainly "dislike" us, right? So why can't they "like" us?

It's funny because Beardies are sort of like people in ways. It's very easy to tell whether a Beardie or a person dislikes you, but it's sometimes a challenge to tell if they like/love you. Right?

 

[CaptainVimes]

CaptainVimes, I say that all of us who are loving enough to be able to appreciate the love our dragons show us thank our lucky stars We KNOW what we are shown and we appreciate it and just think how lucky our dragons are to feel our love and know that we feel theirs in return. The world takes all kinds of people to function and we all learn from each other but there are people who are very open and receptive and there are those who are closed and cautious.........just like their are folks who are Democrats and folks who are Republican. Folks who refer vanilla and folks who prefer chocolate.....I know this Liberal, vanilla loving gal is blessed to have a lizard who shows just as much love and affection toward me as I do to him and in the long run, that's all that matters....someone with a different mindset is not going to take away the joy my Pico brings me

I appreciate what you just said, but you are being unfair in putting my name at the front of it!

Only a few posts before I am talking about how "MY BOY LOVES ME".

I only said that I wasn't arguing that they do love people, because Germain very rudely accused me of attacking her so called scientific "FACT" statement, because I wanted to humanise my reptile.

The pedestal comment was because she did come across as a "I know-it-all" with her comment about hardly ever being wrong. (typical male statement that one!) When I had most probably proved her wrong.

There was no graceful OK, I may be wrong. It was more of a "I don't believe for a minute that I am wrong, despite your source telling me otherwise, so lower mortal, don't dare tell me that I am wrong!".

So, I asked her politely to step off her pedestal for a moment and read the "facts".

Personally, I know for a FACT, that on the day I fell in love with Dexter, he came over to ME, and sat on MY shoulder, (out of a choice of me, whom he had never met before, my friend who was responsible for his care, therefore feeding him at the time, and Simon) moving his head from side to side, as if (like a bird, don't tell me off for likening a reptile to a bird!) he was listening to everything I was saying.

Both Simon and myself have fed him, yet Dexter much prefers to come to ME. When he doesn't like something, he bounds over and climbs up MY shoulder, NOT Simon's, who also brings him food. He won't stay on anyone else, but he'll cuddle up with me for hours.

You can't say that it's because I feed him, because Simon feeds him too, but he OBVIOUSLY prefers to be around me.

I don't need scientific facts, figures or any other hollyhocks to SEE that MY beardie would rather be fed by me, would rather sit on me, would rather be with me.

Whatever is going through his little but big mind, he KNOWS that I love him more than anyone else does.

So please don't accuse me of being on the "scientific balderdash" side. I am not, I merely argued for that one post, that I had not corrected her because I want my beardie to love me, but simply because I had found evidence to blow her "fact" right out of the water.

(well, to prove that it is NOT the actual hypothalamus that is lacking/practically non-existent in a reptile)

I've said enough. :lol:

 

[Germ]

I only said that I wasn't arguing that they do love people, because Germain very rudely accused me of attacking her so called scientific "FACT" statement, because I wanted to humanise my reptile.
You were not attacked or accused of anything! The only one being rude here is you. You read what you want to read, between the lines ...

The pedestal comment was because she did come across as a "I know-it-all" with her comment about hardly ever being wrong. (typical male statement that one! :wink: Fact is, I am male & again you are reading what you want into it & not what is actually said.) When I had most probably proved her wrong.

There was no graceful OK, I may be wrong. It was more of a "I don't believe for a minute that I am wrong, despite your source telling me otherwise, so lower mortal, don't dare tell me that I am wrong!". Twice, once in 2 different posts, I stated that I could be wrong with the name, but think not. Again you read/interpret what you want to see between the lines.

So, I asked her politely to step off her pedestal for a moment and read the "facts". I have yet to see you provide anything related to Reptiles. Quoting the Human Condition when referring to a reptile means absolutely nothing

Personally, I know for a FACT, that on the day I fell in love with Dexter, he came over to ME, and sat on MY shoulder, ~~~~~////~~~~~ don't need scientific facts, figures or any other hollyhocks to SEE that MY beardie would rather be fed by me, would rather sit on me, would rather be with me.

Whatever is going through his little but big mind, he KNOWS that I love him more than anyone else does.
No one has debated any of that at all!

So please don't accuse me of being on the "scientific balderdash" side. No one has done that either ... I am not, I merely argued for that one post, that I had not corrected her because I want my beardie to love me, but simply because I had found evidence to blow her "fact" right out of the water. Again, Humans/Reptiles ~ Water/Sand ... Nothing to compare.

(well, to prove that it is NOT the actual hypothalamus that is lacking/practically non-existent in a reptile)

I've said enough. :lol:

In the interest of keeping things civil, this will likely be my last reply to this.
Have a good one

G.

 

[PumpkinJelly]

I enjoyed hearing your facts, Germain. Thank you for supplying us with some information. I learned a lot!

Since that may be your last post.......

See you later! Thank you for replying to this thread with some valuable info! I appriciate it!

And may I say, your thread about the negative consequences of housing multiple Bearded Dragons together was genius! The graphicness of it was intense, but I thank you for that because it made me decide to separate my dragons! Thank you very much for making that thread! I'm sure it will change the minds of many who are debating on whether or not to house their dragons together!

-PumpkinJelly.

 

[PicosParent]

Captainvimes I put your name on that not because I thought you didn't think your beardie loved you but because you DO believe your beardie loves you....just like I do.
All I meant was we all have different opinions and we can all learn from each other....you seemed to have gotten very upset at Germain and I just wanted to remind you that we are all different and that is OK....it doesn't change my belief that Pico loves me and I don't take it as a personal attack if someone thinks I am crazy for feeling that and I wanted to remind you that what is important is YOUR relationship with YOUR beardie and how it makes YOU feel....
I love hearing all kinds of thoughts and opinions and different ideology and opinions are what make the world go around. My point was that we all view things differently and it doesn't make any of us right or wrong....only God and our beardies know for sure what is going on in their heads.
Germain, I hope you do continue to share your insights and knowledge and thank you for realizing I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone and stating that
I hope everyone has a great evening and enjoyed some wonderful snuggle time with their beardies!!!!

 

[Jerichosdad]

I'm going to pretend like mine does cause i'm freakin needy and that's - that!! You love me right Jericho? That's why you just pooped in the veggie dish i literally just cleaned out , right ? You son of a -----

 

[Germ]

lol - Cute! :lol:

 

[CaptainVimes]

ok, this post has taken me literally THREE hours to complete...

I hope that I don't offend anyone, I just went off on the mission of ATTEMPTING to back up my "argument" that reptiles do not lack a "hypothalamus". In this time, and in conclusion. I have found that they DO, but it is a PART of the LIMBIC SYSTEM that they lack.

So, in this when Germain told me that he knows there is scientific proof that a reptile doesn't have a hypothalamus, therefore cannot LOVE.... he wasn't quite right in what he said.

I actually went out to prove him wrong, because I knew what a hypothalamus did in the human body, so I believed that it would be REQUIRED in a reptile's body, to actually enable it to FUNCTION AT ALL.

In this I was wrong.

However, I shall now give the information that I have found out during my 3 hours of research today.

Please await me to finish before you comment on anything, I believe I'm going to have to split it up between a few posts, it was certainly too much for my android gmail app to cope with (I had to create 2 separate drafts... I have NEVER maxed out on an email in my life! (until today) :lol: )

Here goes:

Captainvimes I put your name on that not because I thought you didn't think your beardie loved you but because you DO believe your beardie loves you....just like I do.
All I meant was we all have different opinions and we can all learn from each other....you seemed to have gotten very upset at Germain and I just wanted to remind you that we are all different and that is OK....it doesn't change my belief that Pico loves me and I don't take it as a personal attack if someone thinks I am crazy for feeling that and I wanted to remind you that what is important is YOUR relationship with YOUR beardie and how it makes YOU feel....
I love hearing all kinds of thoughts and opinions and different ideology and opinions are what make the world go around. My point was that we all view things differently and it doesn't make any of us right or wrong....only God and our beardies know for sure what is going on in their heads.
Germain, I hope you do continue to share your insights and knowledge and thank you for realizing I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone and stating that
I hope everyone has a great evening and enjoyed some wonderful snuggle time with their beardies!!!!

I thank you for clarifying that point PicosParent and I sincerely apologise for reading what you said, in completely the wrong way.

Fact is, I am not food, so why does Dexter spend his entire day, from lights on, until lights out, watching my every move? (you will remember that I live in my bedroom) He is busy basking now, but he has his head twisted in an uncomfortable looking way (maybe not for a reptile) and won't take his eyes off me.

When I do have to leave the room for bathroom breaks, I come back to him pressed against the glass trying to look around the side of his viv to see where I have gone.

Yes, they are naturally curious and inquisitive, but you'd think after 24 days of living with me, that he would realise that I'm a very boring person, because I hardly move.

The only time something different happens is, when Simon comes to give me my medication, (4 times a day, last one when Dexter is fast asleep) when I drink my meal shakes 3 times a day, and when I go from lying propped up, to nearly flat for having a rest.

My life is VERY boring, but he SEEMS to find it fascinating. Obviously Dexter comes out a few times throughout the day, (when he asks, I do not force such interaction upon him) and he seems to really enjoy this time.

He's never had stress marks, from the second "he chose me" to this very day.

Even the hour journey in the car from my friend's house to mine in a small box, (plastic, see-through sides) then sitting on me for an hour whilst Daddy fitted his lighting was not stressful to him. (presuming the case, as he hasn't shown stress marks AT ALL)

(Just like to say, I was not unorganised, I merely bought his lighting set up, with him the same day, even though it wasn't right, it still temporarily saved me £40, and as dragon PLUS lighting was only £40, I'd say I picked up a real bargain. (however, I am still confused as to what she was going to do about Dexter's lighting, had I not fallen in love, and took him home that day, I had originally gone to purchase the lighting for my *"Rankins set up", so she would have taken it away from Dexter, leaving him with nothing. She could not possibly have predicted that Dexter would take a liking to me, come over and climb up me, and enable me to fall in love with him?))

* I had originally planned for a Rankins Dragon, because all the UK people I had asked, said that a 90 gallon (3ft x 2ft x 2ft) would NOT be big enough for a full grown bearded dragon. (going by them growing up to 2ft long) - I am enquiring into getting a 3ftW x 3ftD x2ftH viv made up. Or even extending the front of my current viv by 1ft. (giving 3ftSq extra floorspace - 134.64 gallons in total)
__________________________

Dexter is guesstimated to be 3 years old, so I believe, (correct me if I am wrong?) he will be fully grown already?

He's exactly 18".

Anyway, I've now completely digressed...

Back to the subject in hand....

(cont. in next post)

 

[CaptainVimes]

I apologise for calling you female Germain, but in UK, it IS a female name. However, I COULD have the spelling wrong though, and maybe an "E" is added at the end as the feminine version? (I admit to being frequently wrong, since I've been ill )

I referred to the human brain to query your accuracy, simply because it is a well known and scientific fact that EVERY LIVING ORGANISM (bar plants of course) evolved from reptiles.

IMHO, I believe that there must have been SOMETHING in the ancient reptilian brain, that the "human brain built up on", this article goes into detail regarding our "reptillian brain".

"Reptillian Brain" - click for article

I found this article whilst googling, obviously it doesn't back up my argument regarding the hypothalamus, but it does give some insight into the actual subject of the thread.

"Can a reptile be a man's best friend - click to view article"

I also found this, reptiles are invertebrates aren't they?

an excerpt From the book "Comparative vertebrate neuroanatomy: evolution and adaptation"- click to read

Found it! The EXACT thing I was looking for, you wouldn't believe how much searching I've done to get this!

However, I'm not spending £34.95 to provide the proof. Why would they spend money on research into the hypothalamus of a reptile, if they practically don't have one?

Of course I could be completely barking up the wrong tree with showing this, as I don't know the outcome of the tests! :lol:

Anyway, here we go:

Influence of the hypothalamus on conditioned reflexes in the reptile, Varanus griseus

Hopefully this goes towards giving proof that reptiles are indeed not lacking a hypothalamus.

However, if I have just proved myself completely and utterly wrong, then I stand down from "my side of the hypothalamus argument", and will sincerely apologise for all of this, I just thought that I was actually right for once.

I'll be honest Germain, to a paranoid and mentally ill person, (me) you REALLY DID seem to be saying "I might be wrong, but that would be unusual as I'm almost always right" which IS a typical male statement. Ask any female who lives with a man that claims they're ALWAYS right.

(Simon claims he's always right too, it's really arrogant and annoying, especially when even with short term and long term memory loss, I distinctly recall proving him wrong AT LEAST TWICE.)

Cont. in next post..