Digestion issues, possibly adenovirus

[Menolly07]

Loiosh – H3/21/2014 - 2 years – F3 dunner, hypotrans
Basking spot- 110 degrees
UVB - ReptiSun Linear Tube Fluorescent that I check with a light meter
Been taking him outside for natural UVB, as well.
Tile and newspaper substrate

Both Mother and half brother (Kaz) died early. Kaz actually had identical issues with eating and digestion. It's why I wonder RE dunner genetics. Mom was an F2 dunner and brother was an F3 dunner.

Hypothesize: Congenital defect? Adenovirus? Took swabs for adeno, need to send in to PATS.

He sees the vet tomorrow. I'm going to ask them to run the following tests:
- Oral culture since immune system is likely weakened. I want to check for URI bacteria before symptoms become visible.
- Blood levels to check for anemia. I think he's deficient
- Adenovirus if they can do it faster than PATS
- Ultrasound to check digestive track and organs
- Check for Protozoa because Kaz had them and developed liver damage prior to me getting him

Loiosh was treated for coccidia and pinworms when he was a few months old. Took two courses of antiparasitics to kick them. Last fecal with Doc was clear.

He would eat occasional superworms and a little veg during the winters. Eventually stopped altogether.

Will not eat on own. Forcing canned tegu food with carnivore care, bee pollen and powdered probiotic, 10 ml a day. 1 ml of unflavoured pedialyte. Daily bath, he drinks. Food and water passes through mostly unabsorbed. He is not pooping solid or creating urates. Poops come out in a puddle of liquid with a little bit of wet white spots. Issue with digestive track?

Prior to his problems beginning he was a VORACIOUS eater but always extremely skinny. He passed normal seeming poops.

History of Illness:
13 November - 553 grams - stopped eating. We presumed it to be the start of brumation.
Stayed awake, metabolism did not slow. Still not eating often. I was concerned. However, I still took it as brumation. He'd had a fecal run in November, and it was clean.
Sometimes he'd eat superworms, hornworms. Eventually stopped hornworms.
14 February – 511 grams -42 grams
13 March – 505 grams -6 grams
21 March – 502 grams -3 grams
14 April – 490 grams -12 grams
19 April – 471 grams -19 grams in 5 days

Began forcing tegu food.

22 April – 507 grams +36 grams

I had some questions. Firstly, has anybody with early generation dunners seen these issues? Secondly, has anybody with an adenovirus positive (or other issue) dragon encountered a similar problem regarding digestion? Was a vet able to figure out what specifically was causing issues with regard to absorption?

 

[AHBD]

Sorry to hear that he's not well. Getting the adeno test will explain a lot. It's natural for the food to go out as it went in since it's so soft, he may still be absorbing nutrients. Sorry there are no easy answers, there can be so many complications with these various illnesses and your dragons may all have come from a line that is carrying potential problems. I'm sure others [ esp. Tracie ] will weigh in. So many sad stories here, I hope this can turn around or at least that Loish can remain stable. I wish you the best !

 

[Menolly07]

AHBD, I think he's definitely absorbing some of it. To clarify, the canned regular food has tiny chunks of chicken in it. Those pass through without breaking down. I've been reading about a dragon, nine years old, who has the virus and has been taken such good care of. He gets daily SubQ fluids, as I understand it. I'm planning to also see about beginning those with Loiosh.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jane,

I am sorry you are having trouble with Loiosh. That is too bad. You are considering starting subcutaneous fluids, daily for him? Is he not staying hydrated very well?
Adeno can cause microvilli damage which will cause absorption issues. You have been giving probiotics & bee pollen which should help. Which probiotic are you using again?
Your setup is great, so that definitely wouldn't be the problem!
How do his fat pads look?
Are his gums whitish or a healthy pink?

Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

Tracie, his tail base fat pads are completely depleted. His head pads are beginning to become concave. When we saw the vet yesterday he was actually concerned that there may be a growth low in his belly, beside the descending colon. It ended up being one of his fat storage locations, located bilaterally. Both were so depleted that they had shrunk and hardened.

Loiosh is not absorbing ANYTHING well. Food passes looking similar to how it goes in. Water passes as a brown, liquid urine in abundance without much in the way of urate. The urate is a soft, gellike thing. His gums are an extremely pale pink, and his tongue tip is light grey rather than creamy white. I'm using the probiotic powder from BD.co

I'm going to begin adding an herbivore supplement to the food mash I'm making. Along with Sam-E and Vitamin K. When his CBC comes back I'll decide to add liquid baby iron or not. I'm leaving off Milk Thistle and Dandelion extracts because his organs (liver included) look, thankfully, good.

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This is the update RE the vet visit yesterday. I posted it to Instagram so ignore the hashtags.

Poor #Loiosh had a traumatic trip to the vet. An ultrasound revealed that all organs look normal. We sent off several different samples of blood for testing. A #PCR test will check for a couple viruses, #Adenovirus specifically. A #CBC to see what his levels are like. Blood culture and cloacal culture for bacteria. I brought them as much of a fecal sample as I could, and they'll be checking for #parasites and #protozoa

The ultrasound showed no abnormal growths any place in his GI track. I was sent home with saline to give SubQ and syringes. Additionally, the vet postulated that bacterial enteritis is one possible cause of his upset. He's on one oral antibiotic for that. Additionally, he'll be taking #Flagyl for a week. The vet used a gastric tube to get a bunch of saline into him as well as a stool softener to clear anything in him. He received a dose of #Panacur at the same time. We doubt it's impaction and didn't see evidence of it in the ultrasound. Still, an intestinal blockage would account for some of his issues. I'd already given him mineral oil several months back, so I doubt that is going to be the issue.

Now I wait for tests to come back for the next 1, 5, 7 and 14 days. ? #beardie #beardeddragon
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He pottied this morning, and it looked like the vet said it would. The saline and laxative turn the liquid milky. However, there was not much solid in it, despite me feeding him 5ml yesterday. He actually didn't poop much of the food from the day before either. I'm wondering is it's hanging out in his stomach or if he's actually absorbing better.

Is there anything that will help the microvilli to heal, normalize? Anything to add to aid the breakdown and better absorption of his food?

Via PATS I found out about that breeder in Canada with the 9 year old adeno+ dragon. It gives me such hope. This is EXACTLY what happened with my Kazoozles, Loiosh's half brother. Neither was ever more than super thin. I also have their half sister. She's fat, the way female dragons are, and a huge eater. Both Loiosh and Kaz were big eaters too. They just never really seemed to gain fat to their frames.

Loiosh and Kaz began having issues at the same time in their lifespans. Kaz was about a year older than Loiosh. It was awful when we lost him. Exactly as bad as when we lost Odahviing and Faranth. I'm so frustrated because my first two were adeno+. I went to a really great breeder, and now I've lost one to what may have been adeno. And I may be losing the second too. This frightens me for Isadora, the third, because she may just be a time bomb. I feel like I'm failing them.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jane,

I am so so sorry he is having so much trouble. Let me try to do some research on microvilli issues to see if I can find out anything more.
I think the subcutaneous fluids should hopefully help out. I doubt he has a blockage also, it would have most likely shown up in ALL of those tests that were done. When will the PCR Adeno test results be revealed? When will his CBC results be back in?
He is definitely anemic which can be instrumental in absorption issues. I would recommend going ahead & starting to supplement iron for him.

Keep us posted on him.
Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

Tracie,

I do not know how the tests space out, results wise. Honestly, I was so emotionally overwhelmed at the end that I just wrote down the numbers, didn't ask which estimates were for which and got on with getting down the rest of the info. They use that Avian and Exotics lab that I think everybody uses.

I gave him his first fluids yesterday. We'll see how he does today.

 

[Menolly07]

Small update, some results came back for bloodwork.

His CBC (complete blood count) is normal. This means his red blood cell count was normal which means, in turn, his iron is fine. Also his mono and lymphocytes (white blood cells) are normal, so he's not fighting an infection.

His Blood Chemistry (electrolyte, liver and kidney function, glucose, calcium) and fecal test for parasites all came back normal.

All this means that he is doing much better than expected with regard to body health. This makes the fact that he is still losing fat more perplexing. The Adenovirus test (PCR) has not come back yet.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jane,

Wow so all of his tests came back fine? How odd. Is he digesting any better, or still the same?
I am still trying to find any links for digestive issues, etc & any way to see if we can get this fixed!
How is his day going today?

Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

He's only 510 grams, and his head fat pads are depleting further, despite the feeding. His food is passing through, looking the same as it went in. Rather than forming a solid poop it's like I squirted out the feeding syringe in a puddle of liquid. He does have more curates coming. They're gelatinous, but there's more.

Today is not a good day. He had a bath and drank a LOT of water. When I came back to his cage, after, I took him out for his antibiotics and food. I squirted in the first antibiotic, but he spat it, and a bunch of mucous, out immediately. I worried that he'd breathed in water, so I tilted him down and patted his back firmly and massaged his chest. He was keeping his mouth closed, so I forced it open. A bunch more water and mucous came out in addition to some food.

Now I am not certain if he vomited or if the liquid came from his lungs. If it came from his stomach I am concerned he may have breathed some in. If it came from his lungs then that means he's aspirated food at some point. Either way, stuff came out. He had laboured breathing at first, large, deep, breaths with the sound of a heavy draw of breath but not gasping. He is not gaping. Also, he has settled down and is on my lap, breathing normally and with his eyes closed.

I considered an emergency vet but have decided to forgo it for the following reasons:

If he's aspirated water it's from today, and he did not have an URI previously. His WBC counts were normal, so he is not fighting an infection. An emergency vet would tell me whether or not there is fluid in his lungs via xray, but they would be able to do zero about it. They may prescribe him an antibiotic, but he's already taking what they would give him anyway. Since there is no URI then there's no bacteria to culture for. If he got fluid into his lungs a URI wouldn't develop for a day or two.

I plan to begin Baytril nebulizer treatments. If he produces bacteria then I would rather hit it fast, as it develops, than wait until he begins showing signs as it settles in. I'm aware that bacteria gains resistance the more we treat it with antibiotics. However, in this case I feel that trade off is worth it. I'm not going to feed him today, as much as I hate to do it, because I'm concerned his swallowing reflex may be reduced as he seems weak and tired, as I'd expect he would be.

 

[Menolly07]

He's back to his normal since my last post. I think it was vomiting. I'll just need to keep a close eye on how much he's drinking rather than letting him drink his fill.

His PCR test came back. He is atadenovirus positive. My heart sunk. I already knew that was the problem, but there was always a little hope that it wouldn't be that.

The vet has told me that supportive care and force feeding are the only things I can do. He's not gaining fat. He's not gaining much in the way of grams. His diarrhea is continuing, likely a aide effect of malabsorption. At this point I am not sure what the right choices to make are, regarding his future.

His half brother had a tough death, with full death throws. I fought all the way until the end for him, but I still lost him. I'm having a really difficult time with what choice to make regarding Loiosh's life. I am afraid his body will, one day, just give up. I don't know if waiting until that happens naturally or if letting him go artificially and without pain is the right choice.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jane,

I am sorry his test was positive. He isn't doing any better or just stable?
I am still trying to do more research on this. The intestinal issues are rough & some are more severe than others for some reason.
Can he or will he eat solid foods, or have you tried that lately or just the critical care & baby food feedings?
How do his eyes look?
I know it's a difficult situation, it never is easy.
Did you treat him with a round of colloidal silver yet?

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

Tracie,

He isn't improved, just stable. While he seems less dehydrated his eyes are a little sunken, still. My worry is is he is still suffering from such pronounced malabsorption that stability simply cannot last. The best thing he has going is that he has been fighting me so much harder on his feedings.

I haven't added colloidal silver. With no signs of bacteria or other infection do you think it would help, or are you thinking as more of a preventative?

Between cellular microvilli and his gastrointestinal track basically behaving like a water slide I'm not sure how to help him better.

He is not eating anything by mouth when it's offered. I put superworms down right beside him. He sees them, cranes his head to peer at them then shuts his eyes.

Currently his slurry is canned tegu and monitor food that has been finely ground in a food processor. I've added carnivore care, critical care and powdered turtle food (critical care and turtle food for veggies). I am not adding vitamins and calcium powders because this are in the turtle food. I add pedialyte as the liquid to make it into paste. That is stored in the fridge. When I mix it for the oral syringe I add Sam-E and vitamin K liquid as well as bee pollen and bulk probiotic powder from Beardeddragon.co. I was adding Infant Liquid Iron, but I stopped when his CBC came back normal. I'm planning to begin adding powdered egg white powder as well because that's supposed to be easier to digest.

I am not adding serrapatase because I have not gad any since last year. I emailed BD.co regarding it as they don't seem to have it any longer.

I know that animals are supposed to have cellular turnover. The thing I have not been able to verify is if when those cells turnover and new ones come into play then are they created with normal microvilli or does the atadenovirus affect cellular DNA so they are produced already damaged? If they are produced with normal microvilli is there a supportive intervention u can use to help them STAY normal?

 

[simpledragon]

How is your dragon doing now? I have one with adeno as well, and try to read others experiences as much as possible.

 

[Menolly07]

How is your dragon doing now? I have one with adeno as well, and try to read others experiences as much as possible.

He's stable with no improvement. The key to keeping an atadenovirus dragon as healthy as they can be is being proactive with your care. Especially bloodwork. It tells you so much. I'm taking Izzy, my other dragon, on for bloodwork on a schedule.