Advice for increasing chances of survival?

[Drache613]

Hello,

Ok, great. At least he seems to like the benebac that should help him out.
He likely doesn't need the Cipro. I hope the blood test results are in tomorrow, maybe it
will yield some answers.
I think he has just gotten too many medications & it takes time for the body to get back
to normal. Maybe just let him rest without any dose, he will feel better.

Tracie

 

[EllenD]

Wow, another Ivermectin poisoning...that is absolutely what did this, as Tracie already said your vet should have never, every given Ivermectin to a Bearded Dragon, especially if she's an experienced Reptile Vet, their system cannot process it correctly, and with their slow metabolisms yes, it's still making him sick...and then Cipro on top of it? No, please, please do not give him the Cipro, do not give him any more prescription meds until he's out of danger. He needs lots of fluids every day and just watch him, you're doing everything you can at this point, and yes, they do die suddenly from this without a Black Beard, a Black Beard is an indication of pain or distress, but Ivermectin hangs around for a long, long time.

For future reference, when a Dragon has a fecal that is positive for either or both Coccidia and Pinworms, and the count/load for either is low to moderate, and the dragon is not exhibiting any symptoms of being ill, as you said your dragon was, they do not need to be treated at all for either, as neither medication actually kills the coccidia or pinworms in the first place, they make the female pinworms sterile and cause both to be flushed from their systems. But most dragons at any given time have a low to moderate count/load of pinworms and/or coccidia, and are just fine and need no treatment, if they are healthy and getting proper husbandry and diet, their bodies and immune systems can keep them in check and they're fine. And if the counts are moderate to high or the dragon is sick from either pinworms or coccidia or both, the most effective and least harsh treatments for both is Panacur for pinworms (causes little to no side effects at all) and the Toltrazuril for the coccidia (again, very effective and very few side effects). Albon can treat them effectively, but it's much harsher and usually takes either a longer course of treatment or more than one round of treatment, while the Toltrazuril and Panacur are a one-time thing and you're good to go.

So hoping that he gets through this Ivermectin poisoning, AFTER he is doing much, much better and back to normal, then get a repeat fecal test done before you give him any more medication, and if either the pinworms or the coccidia is in the high count/load range, then ask your vet to treat the pinworms with Panacur and definitely ask for Toltrazuril for the coccidia, but only if the repeat fecal test at that point shows high counts. Bearded Dragons cannot handle these prescription anti-parasitic, anti-protozoan, antibiotic, and anti-fungal drugs well at all, least of all many of them like this in a row, they often die of kidney failure when they are put on so many meds, one after the other. That's why I agree totally with Tracie, the Cipro is totally unnecessary, I'm not at all understanding why your vet prescribed the Cipro in the first place..Cipro is an antibiotic that treats very specific bacterial infections...did your vet do a culture or did his blood work show signs of a bacterial infection too? Because the Cipro isn't going to help with either parasite, and it certainly wasn't a bacterial infection that caused the vomiting or other issues if that's what your vet was trying to imply, that was caused by Ivermectin poisoning. So no, don't give him any of the Cipro, he doesn't have a bacterial infection at all, and the Cipro could very well be the last straw for his kidneys, and I'd hate to see yet another dragon killed by a vet prescribing too many meds for no reason at all. As AHBD said, venting does no good for your dragon, but this happens all the time, every day, and it's frustrating....Ivermectin poisoning, so let's prescribe some Cipro to really shut-down his kidneys...I'm very sorry, I know it's not productive but that's just terrible...

 

[Lambtor]

Thanks for the support everyone. I opted not to give the Cipro last night; I'm going to discontinue it until I get a positive diagnosis that would necessitate giving it. He's still alive today (yay!) but still mostly napping between me walking over to stare at his breathing or occasionally adjusting the probe in his tank to check temps are holding steady. This morning I gave about 1.5ml of ReptaBoost; he isn't really into me shoving the feeding syringe in between his lips, but he is at least lapping up most of it. I also gave about .05ml of Benebac, which he does take willingly. Put out salad for him, but still no interest in that. I just got my Oxbow Critical Care in, so I'll try to offer that in a few hours.

I was anxiously awaiting lab results (office has been open for 4 hours already!), so I just called to make sure I didn't get lost in the shuffle. Nothing to report yet on labwork.

Other tentative good news: he hasn't had any watery bowel movements since Saturday night, and he's maintaining at 57 grams since last night, which is +1 from Friday! I am feeling cautiously optimistic that he may pull through. I'm lucky that my job is really flexible, and we're well set up to work from home, so I can spend all day staring at him rather than worrying from work.

 

[EllenD]

I'm glad he's still doing alright, this happened last month or the month before to a dragon, she lived, but it was touch and go for a good month after she got the Ivermectin dose. And just so you can see how poisonous Ivermectin is to reptiles, that person was actually given pre-loaded syringes of Ivermectin to inject into his roaches, so the dragon itself never actually got a dose of Ivermectin given to it, it was only fed a few roaches injected with it until he vomited and then the member came on to ask about it...

Exotics vets just love to prescribe antibiotics when they don't know what's wrong, usually they say "Just in case", usually it's Baytril, not Cipro, but either way it's terrible medical practice and all too common. It sounds like your vet really has no idea how deadly Ivermectin usually is to Bearded Dragons, and that's large, adult Bearded Dragons, let alone small babies or juveniles. It sounds like your vet really didn't realize that it was the Ivermectin that caused him to become horribly sick.

Just an FYI, even if his blood work comes back with elevated white cells, which I don't think it will at all because he had no signs or symptoms at all of any type of infection prior to any of this happening (that's why this is so frustrating, he was totally 100% fine and a vet caused this), but even if his white cells are elevated, still do not give him the Cipro until that vet sees him again and does a Culture/Sensitivity and sends it off for testing so she can determine #1) What type of bacteria is causing the infection, #2) Where the infection is, and most importantly #3) What antibiotic will actually treat the specific bacterial infection...Cipro is not really a broad-spectrum antibiotic, so let's say he has slightly elevated white blood cells (which he could due to the stress of the Ivermectin poisoning anyway; unless the white cells are threw the roof that would probably be the cause anyway) and your vet says "Give him the Cipro", then he doesn't get better, then he'll have to take yet ANOTHER ROUND of antibiotics to treat the infection, and who knows if that one will be correct without a culture, etc. It's a downward spiral that when continuous shuts down their kidneys, liver, etc. They just can't take it.

Either way I don't think the blood work is going to show any type of infection at all.

 

[Lambtor]

I was also given preloaded syringes of Ivermectin, but told to give it directly to him orally. There are actually two vets at my usual office involved in this, which could be a factor. Vet #1 prescribed the Albon and Ivermectin. Vet #2 prescribed the Cipro.

As an aside, I did think it was kind of weird that neither one of them seemed to be aware of the existence of transluscent morphs. They had each commented separately on how you could see through his belly skin and seemed somewhat surprised about it. The office I go to specializes in exotics, avians, and pocket pets so it's a bit mystifying.

But oh man, touch and go for a month? These past few days have been incredibly stressful already; if I have to do another month of this I might not make it myself! I fed about 1ml of Critical Care mixed up with chicken and squash baby foods + water, and weighed him again. He's down 3g, looking a bit dehydrated again even though he's been fed both ReptaBoost and Critical Care today for a total of 2.5 ml. He's also been resting/sleeping most of the time. It's hard to not be in constant freakout mode Also hard to make the call as to when to bring him in for subcutaneous fluid (I didn't last night). I want to strike the right balance between making sure he stays well hydrated and trying to keep stress levels down. The E-vet that can treat is about 20 miles away, so it's not a super easy trip.

As I was typing this up, Vet #2 called with the results. White blood cells are slightly elevated, but not outside normal range. She is worried that they're only slightly elevated because he's overwhelmed by infection and his body can't make enough. Red blood cells are very low, and blood glucose is really low. He's anemic and dehydrated. She said that the pinworms were less, but she thinks he might be succumbing to a coccidia infection, so she wants to put him back on Albon. I asked if there was anything gentler than Albon, but she said there wasn't, and other stuff (like ponazuril) is harsher. She also wants him to keep taking Cipro, and wants to add Sucralfate (which is supposedly like Pepto?) to help his gastrointestinal system. I don't know anything about the Sucralfate, so I guess I'll need to do some research there.

I'm going to bring him in for more SubQ fluids tomorrow afternoon since I need to go pick up meds anyway. I'm really not sure what to do about the med situation; she didn't actually give me a confirmed diagnosis of infection (she just suspects).

Edit: She just emailed what we talked about, here's the breakdown:

Jub Jub's total white cell count is in the high normal range at 10,500. The distribution of cells shows normal heterophils at 55%, normal lymphocytes at 32% and slightly elevated azurophils at 8%. He is anemic with a PCVof 22%.

The chemistry results show normal: bile acid 19umol/L, sodium 165.6mmol/L, potassium 4.3mmol/L, triglycerides 172mg/dL, calcium 13.2mg/dL, protein 4g/dL, phosphorus 6.4mg/dL, SGOT 112lU/l.

The blood glucose was very low at 7mg/dL. This can be seen with severe infections where there is bacteria in the blood stream and they are consuming the blood glucose. It can also be seen if red blood cells are being lost from a gastrointestinal system that is compromised.

The uric acid level is also increased at 6mg/dL. Uric acid is eliminated by the kidneys so if the kidneys are not working well the level can rise, or if the animal is dehydrated from not drinking or eating well the level can also go up. Dehydration can also make the blood more concentrated so the PCV may actually be lower than the 22% that we measured.

Jub Jub needs to stay on the Ciprofloxacin for possible infection. And he needs to soak daily to try to keep him hydrated.

I would like to add sucralfate to his treatment in case he has gastrointestinal ulcers and is leaking fluid or blood cells. I also want to treat his coccidia again since that may be part of the cause for his illness.

Continue to feed him the Critical Care with the Reptiboost. 1cc daily or 2cc every other day is fine if that is all he wants.

We will see you tomorrow at 2:30 pm to pick up the medications and for Jub Jub to get more subcutaneous fluids.

 

[AHBD]

Something that most long time owners + breeders know [ and there are quite a few that come on here ] is that an " exotics " vet does not necessarily know a lot about beardies. They usually see lots of birds, hamsters, rats a few snakes , turtles + lizards. They don't specialize in beardies at all.

Many people on this forum can tell you that what the vet says about Albon verses ponazuril is the opposite. Ponazuril usually knocks coccidia out in 2-3 doses and is much less harsh than Albon, a sulfa drug that is hard on the kidneys. The choice is up to you but the sad truth is that your dragon's condition came on after the stay at the vet's + after being given a toxic mix of meds.

You can just keep offering the syringe feedings with extra hydration, I think that's her best chance Antibiotics are hard on the kidneys and so is the Albon.

 

[Lambtor]

Sigh, I'll stay the course and hope that he can pull through. I called a couple other vets that are nearby-ish to see if I can get a second opinion, waiting for a morning call back. I'm basically just shopping for someone who will prescribe me the ponazuril, which I'll use if he improves soon. His weight's not dropping too much, he's still eating from a syringe without force feeding, and he drank a fair amount in the bath. He's keeping his head up mostly, though he is sleeping a lot. I guess I'm just trying to be hopeful.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, he was perfectly fine before you boarded him & came out ill afterwards because of
their negligence & medication disasters.
His blood work looked pretty good. The uric acid levels will normalize once his hydration
status improves. You can continue to give oral fluids daily to help with that.
He does not need more Albon, or Cipro at all. The reason his uric acid levels are elevated
some is because of the medications. He has coccidia now because of the stress from the
medications. The initial medication from the Ivermectin has caused his symptoms to snow
ball & get worse leading to more & more medications to fix the first problem.
His body needs to get it all flushed out of his system before he starts to feel better. It is
evident he doesn't have any infection at all or his GI tract doesn't have any leaks or ulcers.
I would continue to give probiotics right now to help his system normalize more.
Keep him around 80 in his tank overnight to help boost his immune system.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

 

[Lambtor]

Well, I am not sure he's doing much better this morning. I got up to check on him and found a couple messes in his terrarium. One that was definitely a runny poo with just a bit of orange urate (?), and the other I'm not entirely sure. It looked and smelled like Reptaboost. It could have been pooped or vomited, but it's also not the last thing he ate (that was the Critical Care), so I'm leaning toward poop. I am really worried. He's still hanging in there. :\

Just got a call from one of the vets I called last night and he's got another appointment with him scheduled for this afternoon. Fingers crossed.

 

[EllenD]

Tracie nailed it like an experienced Reptile Specialist Vet, his system is out of whack due to the Ivermectin and possibly the Coccidia, but giving him a Sulfa Drug like Albon is a death sentence for sure, his kidneys are already overwhelmed by the elevated Uric Acid, which is due to the dehydration, which is due to a combination of the Ivermectin poisoning and all the other meds.

Please, please do not give him Albon or the Cipro, both would certainly kill him 100%, and even just the Sulfa drug, in my opinion, would probably kill him as well. He's too young, too small, and already too stressed to the max to handle all of this. And there is no way in hell that Albon is less-harsh than Toltruzuril, that's a bunch of BS. Just as an aside, if you search on the forums search-bar above for "Sulfa", you will find a pretty recent post, within the last 5 or 6 months, where a Dragon was killed by Albon (if I remember correctly we were using the generic drug name, which is indicative of a Sulfa drug) because their kidneys were already in failure due to other issues and too many meds, and the "exotics" vet was so concerned about a Coccidia infection that they put the dragon on the Albon, and he was dead within a couple of days. Sulfa is deadly to dragons and other reptiles, and in my opinion should never, ever be given to them when they are already in kidney distress.

He needs a lot of daily fluids and electrolytes, and I don't think I'd be even treating the Coccidia infection yet until his blood cell counts normalize, but if you want to treat the Coccidia please, please demand the Toltrazuril and do not give him ANY of the Albon or the Cipro, either will most certainly either kill him quickly or put him in such a downward spiral that he will end up in the hospital with these "exotics" vets, who will surely kill him.

Something that AHBD said is something I wish we could put in a "Sticky", and that is that in the United States (I don't know the laws or licensing practices in other countries) an "Exotics Vet" simply means that the vet is WILLING TO SEE animals other than just dogs and cats (that is a "General" Vet when they only see dogs and cats). That's literally all that the "Exotics" title means in the US. They have no extra education, training, or experience, they are simply willing to see any type of animal that you can bring in, reptiles, amphibians, birds, rodents, you name it. It's a way to obviously make more money. Are there good, experienced "Exotics" vets that are very knowledgeable with Bearded Dragons? Sure, but they have usually been practicing for decades, and they typically veer their practices to ONLY seeing one particular type of pet, and sometimes they even go back to school, do continuing education in that particular species, or do a Fellowship under a Certified Vet in that particular species...but the typical "Exotics" Vet or "Exotics" Animal Hospital (especially if they see reptiles, amphibians, birds, rodents, etc. all at the same time) is no more qualified to treat a Bearded Dragon than I am. Seriously, no joke.

If you are able to find a Certified Reptile Vet or Reptile Specialist Vet who ONLY treats reptiles, then that's the way to go...but they are very rare, and I'm so fortunate to have one 10 minutes from me. Most people have to go to what is available, and usually that's an "exotics" vet who may have never even seen a Bearded Dragon more than a few times during their entire careers. That's the situation you're in. On the other hand, we all not only have owned, bred, raised, and cared for Bearded Dragons for decades (I bet we've got over 100 years of Bearded Dragon experience between the 10 or so regular members who post on the forum every day), but we also spend day in and day out on this forum, talking to, seeing, and advising people in just your situation. That's exactly why I told in my last post that "Even if his white cell count comes back slightly elevated, still do not give him the Cipro, as he has no bacterial infection, his WBC's are elevate due to the overall stress on his body"...called that one...it's also why I tried to make a huge point to you about not allowing this vet to give him Albon if his Coccidia levels come back high, but rather the Toltrazuril...called that one too...the reason we are able to tell you this stuff and advise you as to what was going to happen before it happened is because we've been through this over and over and over and over again, and we've all seen dragons killed by giving them a Sulfa drug in this situation, and we've seen Ivermectin poisoning do this before many, many times. And when a Dragon is in this downward spiral where all he needs is hydration and electrolytes daily and then time, the "exotics" vet's first instinct is to tell you that "He needs to be on the Sulfa drug (Albon)and the Cipro both"...this will kill him. 100%.

He has no bacterial infection at all, as Tracie wisely said, "He was perfectly fine until this vet put him on the Ivermectin and that is what is what has caused this". And she's absolutely correct, he has no bacterial infections, and the Coccidia infection certainly wasn't causing him to have any symptoms of lethargy, a lack of appetite, etc., was it? Nope, he was fine. But because these vets feel the need to medicate, medicate, medicate, even when the dragon's body and immune system is totally dealing with the Coccidia and Pinworms just fine without them, they go ahead and do this crap...Just the fact that these vets gave a Bearded Dragon Ivermectin to treat a low count/load of Pinworms is enough for me to say they should never see another reptile ever again.

So please, take our advice and do not give him the Cipro, do not put him on the Albon, instead demand that they give you the Toltrazuril (if you decide to treat the Coccidia right now, as again I don't think you should at all, I think any medication right now could kill him, even the gentle and much less harsh Toltrazuril, and since he had no signs or symptoms of the Coccidia prior to the Ivermectin poisoning it doesn't need to be treated right now at all). If you can get them to give you large, pre-loaded syringes so that you can give him subcutaneous fluid injections at home that would be awesome, it's easy once they show you how to do it once, and most Reptile Vets have no problem doing this, I'd request Lactated Ringers Solution. And I'd also go out and buy some unflavored Pedialyte to give him orally with an oral syringe, it's a better option than water because it will help his electrolyte balance and his kidneys. Once he gets all of this garbage out of his system and his kidneys get adequately flushed out and the Uric Acid levels go down, he'll be just fine and need nothing else...

The bottom line is that his blood work is messed up due to only one reason, the Ivermectin poisoning, that's it. And the fact that this vet doesn't see that and wants to give him even more harsh medications when his kidneys are literally in danger of failing is enough that you should be running the other direction...

 

[EllenD]

I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to sound uncaring or harsh, actually anyone on this forum will tell you just the opposite, I'm extremely passionate about the welfare of animals, especially Bearded Dragons in this situation, because they cannot advocate for themselves, so someone else has to. And it's not your fault, you're just trying to do what's right for your dragon, you want him to get well and be alright, and why wouldn't you trust a veterinarian who went through 8 years of college/vet school and then an internship in order to practice veterinary medicine? That's the problem with "exotics" vets in the United States, in my opinion and educational experience they are legally allowed to totally misrepresent themselves and their qualifications. Just the term "exotics" vet makes them sound so specialized as opposed to just an "general" vet, when in reality they are exactly the same as far as education and experience. That's not fair to you or any other Bearded Dragon owner with very little experience or animal health science education. This is not your fault in any way, and I didn't want you to think I was being forceful or aggressive in my last post in a way that was directed at you. You're a victim here too, just as your dragon is. That's why we all are trying to give you our best advice based on years of education and experience, some professional medical and research experience in the case of myself, Tracie, and others on this forum. And in the case of people like AHBD, Knobbys, etc., they have over 20 years a piece experience owning, raising, and breeding Bearded Dragons. I would trust any of these people with my own Dragons health before I would trust any "exotics" vet...

I actually don't think I was forceful enough getting my opinion across in my last post, Tracie said it all the way I wanted to, but I was trying to back down a bit when I told you to "Ask for Toltrazuril to treat the Coccidia, and do not give him Albon at all"...what I wanted to say and will say now for the sake of your dragon is just what Tracie has already said, please do not put your dragon on ANY more medications right now, do not give him the Cipro or any other antibiotic because he has absolutely no bacterial infection, and do not give him ANY medication right now to treat the Coccidia either, certainly not a Sulfa drug like the Albon, but not the Toltrazuril either. Yes the ToltraZuril is a much less harsh drug than the Sulfa drugs (which regularly kill totally healthy Dragons) and yes that's what I would recommend for treating a high Coccidia count/load, but right now he cannot handle ANY MEDICATIONS AT ALL, not does he need anything to treat the Coccidia. As Tracie already stated, his Coccidia count went up because his body is so stressed from the Ivermectin poisoning and his immune system is so weakened by the Ivermectin and all the other unnecessary meds they have pumped into him that he cannot keep the parasites in-check right now. HE WILL BE ABLE TO GET THE COCCIDIA UNDER CONTROL ONCE HE GETS THE IVERMECTIN OUT OF HIS SYSTEM AND HIS URIC ACID GOES DOWN, HE GETS HIS ELECTROLYTE LEVELS NORMALIZED, ETC.

After all, his body was having no problem keeping both the pinworms and coccidia under control prior to all this BS. That's what is so frustrating and just awful, this was all started because an "exotics" vet did a fecal test on a Dragon and didn't know how to read it and didn't know what the protocol for low coccidia and/or pinworms is...he was fine prior, he'll be fine again once what this vet has done to him is "undone". It's time to leave well-enough alone, and treat him with daily fluid therapy and the Critical Care, which is an excellent nutrition-replacement supplement. That's all he needs, nothing else, he cannot take any more meds. None. Nor does he need them. I just wanted to get that across...

Look at it this way, wild Beardies in the Australian Desert who usually always have some pinworms, coccidia, etc. in their GI Tracts certainly don't take themselves to an "exotics" vet to get Albon...

 

[Lambtor]

Hey, no worries. I know you guys are all trying to help and make sure that Jub Jub pulls through. I didn't take offense to anything. Also to clear things up: I haven't given any meds since I made my initial post and I don't intend to at this time. I don't have any clear diagnosis to make it necessary.

I got a little more BeneBac in him this morning, plus about 1.2 ml of Critical Care mixed with baby food and water. I actually do have some pedialyte solution that I made up on Saturday but he does not seem to care for it. At least not the grape flavor, which was all they had when I went to the store. I can check again when I get back from vet appointments today. Honestly, I'm less confident that he's going to make it through the day unless the fluids really perk him up.

The tough thing about this vet situation is that Vet #1 does actually specialize in Reptiles (like, the office doesn't even treat cats or dogs), and he's listed on every Herp Vet list I've found online. So frustrating.

 

[EllenD]

Most "exotics" vets don't treat dogs or cats at all, especially if it's an "Exotics" Animal Hospital or Clinic, they won't treat dogs or cats, but rather reptiles, amphibians, birds, rodents, etc. I grew up in a parrot-breeding family/household, and spent about 16 years breeding and hand-raising English and American budgies, Cockatiels, and Green Cheek Conures, and the exact same issue exists for the bird world, there are very few Certified Avian Vets or Avian Specialist Vets around either. So most parrot owners have to take their parrots to an Exotics vet/hospital/clinic, just like the one you are taking your Dragon to. That's the problem. And yes, the Herp Connection gives you Exotics vets that see reptiles in addition to actual Certified Reptile Vets and Reptile Specialists...that being said, if ANY vet, whether an exotics vet or a Board Certified Reptile Vet gives a Bearded Dragon or any other reptile Ivermectin, then they are lacking in knowledge in the treatment of parasites for sure, and it's a red-flag. Ivermectin actually kills most all species of Chameleons almost instantly, and most other reptiles go through what your Dragon is going through, depending on the dosage given. You're right, it's extremely frustrating, because I read an article written after the results of a controlled-study dealing with Ivermectin dosing in different species of reptiles in the Journal of Herpetology just months ago when that last Dragon was poisoned, and the results were very clear: You cannot dose reptiles directly or indirectly with Ivermectin, as it's usually fatal. Period. Now if I read that scholarly article, as most all Board Certified Reptile Vets would have read it, why didn't any exotics vets who treat reptiles have to read it? And this isn't a new revelation either, don't think that, it's long been known that Ivermectin has been known to be fatal in dogs and cats for years, and is usually not even mentioned anymore in the treatment of birds or reptiles, because they are just too small and do not have the renal systems to be able to handle the poison. At this point in time and for the past decade or so, Ivermectin is strictly only given to large livestock, when an entire herd of cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, etc. is infested with certain parasites/worms, and they dose their feed, not the animal itself. So if they can't even directly dose a cow with Ivermectin for fear of the cow being put into renal failure, why the hell would any vet give it to a lizard that weighs at most 500 grams? Especially when we have such an effective and easily metabolized drug like Panacur at hand? It's so very frustrating...

Let us know how the vet appointment goes, I'm so glad you're standing your ground with this vet and not giving him the meds, again, the Cipro is absolutely ridiculous, in fact that is actually as frustrating to me as the Ivermectin is. Even after the blood work should be screaming to this vet that the poor guy has suffered Ivermectin poisoning and he has no bacterial infection at all, she still tells you to give him the Cipro, after seeing that he is going into kidney failure. No vet should be prescribing Cipro to any Dragon whose WBC count comes back in the high-normal range, that's not an indication of an infection, especially when you read the other blood work results along with it, it's a blaring indication that his body is very stressed, dehydrated, and that his kidneys are overwhelmed. And then to tell you to still give it to him knowing that his kidneys are so stressed by the UA level, with no indication of a bacterial infection for the Cipro to treat, knowing that it may very well be what kills him, that is just as frustrating and perplexing as the Ivermectin.

I hope they are willing to show you how to give him subcutaneous fluid injections at home and will provide you with the pre-filled syringes of something like Lactated Ringers Solution, this is a very common practice for vets to do, and it's very easy to do at home. It should do wonders for him. Having him stay in an Exotics Animal Hospital and be even more stressed, and then of course they will surely be giving him the Cipro, the Albon, etc., that's a death sentence for sure.

Try to buy some unflavored Pedialyte, Walmart always has it, they have their generic version too, you save about $1 a bottle and it's exactly the same thing, and they've always had the unflavored kind every time I've looked. I keep a bottle on-hand at all times in my pet first-aid kit (once you open it you must keep it in the fridge and it's only good for a week then I think). I had a Cockatiel who broke a blood feather one night at around 10:00, she was gushing blood, and I tried Qwik-Stop and Corn Starch for 20 minutes, she was still bleeding profusely and they only have so much blood before it's too late, so I had to go grab a pair of Vise-Grip pliers and literally yank the blood feather that she broke out of the bone in her wing that it was growing out of. It's the only way to stop the bleeding sometimes, especially if they are directly in a bone...and they are really in the bone, let me tell you, it took me all the strength I had in my arm to get that feather pulled out of her bone, with her screaming and crying and not knowing why mommy was hurting her so badly, it broke my heart and I actually got sick afterward and vomited because of how she was screaming...but it saved her life, the bleeding stopped almost instantly with a little Corn Starch on the hole the feather came out of, but she was obviously weak, disoriented, and sleepy from the massive blood loss, and I had to force the Pedialyte down her throat and into her Crop with a Crop Needle (I luckily know how to crop-feed birds due to growing up with my mom breeding them). The next day she was still weak and tired, but 100% better, and when we went to my Avian Vet the next morning he said that the Pedialyte was the best thing I could have given her, so from that point on I always have an unopened bottle on hand, just in-case...

Keep us updated, we're pulling for you guys...

 

[Lambtor]

I do have a new question: Jub Jub keeps trying to hang out on the cold side today (which is currently bumped up to about 85-87 degrees), but my vet mentioned making sure he stays on the warm side while he's recuperating. He even mentioned taping up a piece of cardboard to prevent him from spending too much time over there. Does this seem like good advice to you all?

I am syringe feeding him, so I'm worried if he spends all his time on the cool side he's going to have digestion problems. He keeps moving out of his basking area when I put him there.

Also... He got a fresh fecal exam yesterday and the vet said he had about a third of the original coccidia counts, and about half the original pinworm counts. I don't know the exact counts, but the original fecal had "heavy" amounts of both. He still wants to treat the coccidia with Albon, and is pretty adamant that it's the gentlest med for it. I'm hesitant of course, but I just noticed blood in Jub Jub's stool.


Edit: Seems like he really just wants to hide (he normally never does). I showed him his hide on the warm side (it's about 103ºF in there) and he's in there now. He definitely got several hours of UVB time today. Is it okay to let him stay in the hide?

 

[AHBD]

I'd let him go to the cool side if he wants, it's still quite warm at 85-87. And I would def. not give him anymore meds. Albon is def. more harsh than Ponazuril. In the near future if he improves you can actually order Ponazuril here :

http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=246

Toltrazuril is the same thing, it comes with dosing instructions as well. Did you get a pic of his poo ? Poor little guy, he's been through the ringer. Best wishes to your baby and to you while you deal with this.