Spike 2 dying... Same symptoms as #1

[twinmommy]

You can remove the water dish, also. It will only raise the humidity in the viv. Bathing 2-3 X a week X 15-20 min. will provide adequate hydration.

 

[ShannyBeard]

You can remove the water dish, also. It will only raise the humidity in the viv. Bathing 2-3 X a week X 15-20 min. will provide adequate hydration.

They have a water dish...? I totally missed that. If you have humidity concerns, a water dish is a huge no-no. Good call, twinmommy. None of my bearded dragons have a water dish, just my Rankins.

 

[kjpetriel]

This morning, I measured the temp of the log surface closest to the basking lite. It was 108 degrees and the beardy was hiding under the log in sthe shade. All the lights we have are zoo med products.

I don't remember why we have a watering dish... Although #3 likes to run through it.... Will call home and have it removed.

Bathing.... THIS is one problem... I only bath them about 5 minutes or so once a week. What temp water? I've been using water that feels comfortably warm and water only as deep as his chest. I cup the water and splash it over his back. Normally #1 &#2 ran out as quickly as possible.. #3 like to play in it.


Started up data logger in the viv I built where both #1 & #2 died in. Should have god temp results by this weekend.

 

[twinmommy]

Pretty warm water. I make mine just a little hotter than a baby's bath water. Beardies absorb water through their vent. Possibly increase the frequency /time of the baths. I had to give my baby (Legs) baths more frequently because she would not drink from a dish, a dropper, or in her bath. I was so worried about dehydration and all the health issues that come with it. Now that she is older and I know her habits, I can see what she looks like and assess her poop and adjust baths accordingly. We now bathe 2x week for 15 min. Up to baby's shoulders is good.

 

[kjpetriel]

AT LAST.. I think we may have a reasonable answer!!!!
Breeder thought that I over heated them...
Since the baths are on cleanning days, and only 5 minutes, and both died on unussually hot muggy days/nights, both died like a day or two before the bath.
They we fine in the cool morning of their last day, but must not have had enough water from the crickets and phoenix worms to sustain them through the heat.
Niether were big greens eaters. #1 basically just ate crickets.. wouldn't touch phoenix worms or salad. #2 liked salad IF you put the smallest piece of strawberry in it. None of them drink from the water bowl, but, #3 seems to like to run through it.

One thing I'm looking at is how the room temp affects the viv temp. Basking light are on times, ceramics on thermostats. If the basking light drives too much heat relative to the room temp and they weren't hydrated enough...

 

[XtinaBeardieMom]

Yep, hydration is a huge deal - especially for babies. It's normal for beardies not to drink from a water bowl... they don't really recognize standing water. It's also normal for a baby to not eat much greens/salad. When they're babies, their diet should be about 80-90% live feeders and 10-20% veggies. That ratio slowly starts reversing until they're full grown at about 18-24 months old. Adult beardies should be eating 80-90% veggies and 10-20% live feeders. Beardies of any age should be soaked in warm water (I use my infrared temp gun to make sure the water is 100-105 degrees) for 20-30 mins at least 3 times per week. If they won't take oral fluids or don't eat a lot of veggies, then soaking them almost every day would be best - they absorb the water through their vent. My little Lotus gets a bath almost every day, and it's pretty convenient for me b/c she's now potty trained to poop in the tub as well hehe :lol: Anyway, good luck with new baby Spike the third - hope your son is enjoying him!

 

[ShannyBeard]

Yes hydration is a huge balancing act for babies. I hate to say it and I've said it before here, I can't believe you got a 3rd small baby with your obvious husbandry confusion and issues. I mean that as it is, I am not judging you. I'm just puzzled.

Don't even think for a minute that I am just spouting off criticism. I am an experienced bearded dragon owner and a few days ago I got a 3 week old baby. I never, ever look at a baby that young, but the circumstances were such that I got her. She has been running around, eating, pooping and having a good time Sunday, Monday and yesterday. Last night she ate, her lights stayed on for 2 hours after, and she woke up nearly lifeless. My husband and I have been killing ourselves this morning to bring her back and she went lifeless several times.

Right now she is alert, awake and moving around normally. We think she got dehydrated. I'm telling you, teeny little babies are hard to take care of and they can go downhill so fast that it can happen while you are at work. I live 1.5 miles from work, and if I didn't I have a feeling she would not be around right now. My husband and I have had to run home taking turns nursing her back with baby food and pedialyte, and alternating that with letting her rest.

I just hope for the best for you. We aren't even experimenting on this baby like you are with Spike #3...we have our set ups right on all 20 of our reptiles. We know what we are doing, yet we almost lost a baby. Between relocation stress and just them being so young and fragile, it is easy for that to happen.

 

[diamc]

I read this whole thread. I am so sorry to hear about Spike #1 and Spike #2, that is SO sad, the poor things. Babies are VERY particular with their needs and if they get dehydrated, they go downhill VERY quickly. A 5 minute bath once is a wk is nowhere near enough. Babies that small need to get a bath at least 3 to 4 times a wk and it should last 15 to 20 min for proper hydration. They should also be offered oral fluids or be misted daily (out of the tank) so that they can drink the water off their noses.

I know you said you use a digital probe thermometer but are you putting the probe right on the basking log or rock, making sure it is resting right on it and then waiting 45 min to an hour before you get the final reading? That is very crucial. I can just about guarantee you that a 100 watt bulb in only a 20 gallon tank is WAY too hot. To give you an example, one of my tanks is a 40 gallon breeder with the dimensions of 36 L x 18 W x 19 H and I only need a 60 watt household bulb to get a basking temp of 105 and a 40 watt household bulb on the cool side to get a temp of about 81. My beardie is 4 months old. In order to be able to digest & poop properly, your basking temp should be between 103 and 110 since your baby is so small. But you have to make sure that there isn't a water dish in the tank and that you're NOT misting inside the tank either.

I noticed that you wrote this

1 75 watt mini floressent UVB (The kind that looks like the energy saver bulbs) sirring on the grate.

The coil/compact UVB's are very dangerous and unfortunately, have killed some beardies, especially babies. Does your bulb look like this? If so, please turn it off immediately!!! Your beardie will be better off without any UVB for a few days or even a wk rather than continuing to use that horrible UVB.

You had also mentioned that your other beardies were getting quite a bit of calcium. Too much calcium is not good and without the proper UVB, their bodies can't synthesize calcium correctly so it can make them very ill. For babies, their feeders should be dusted with calcium 5 days a wk but only 1 feeding a day with calcium and dusted with vitamins the other 2 days a wk but only 1 feeding a day.

Please make some changes to try to help your newest Spike stay healthy. Babies should actually only be in a household that has been able to raise babies into adult beardies so getting one at least 6 months old probably would have been the way to go for you and your family but we are here to help you every step of the way.

 

[kjpetriel]

I would say that that is THE EXACT bulb I am currently using. So far, every source of UVB I've posted on this board has been called VERY DANGEROUS.. EXCEPT the 18" floresenat tube (again zoo med) which the breeder said was too far away (at the top of the viv 18" away) to be of any use..

Ok, here are some results from instrumenting the viv I built...
The viv is 2' wide and 4' long and 18" high.. Basking area on extreme left (Zone 1). On extreme right is a balcony so on top of the balcony (which is above the air vent) is Zone 2. Zone 3 is under the balcony next to the air vent. Zone 4 is room temp, about 2' away from the viv.

Zone 1...Extreme left... basking area... normally 106, until about 5 pm where it spikes up to 113. It has done this for three days in a row. I ASS U ME, that the rocks have all absorbed all the heat they can, an now, instead of spreading the heat, the surface temp rises.
This is using the old schedule which is about 14 hours of light. Cutting this back to 10 or 11 hours may prevent this spike.

Zone 2, gets up to 95 and SP1 loved to hang out there.

Zone 3 is darker and next to the vent and was typically 10F about room temp.

Certainly there was a correlation between room temp and the other 3, but not as much as the time of day.

I am trying to figure out hor to post my data graphs for every one

We put spikers in the old viv while we cleaned up the 20L and it was OBVIOUS that he liked it... he ran around frantically ????TASTING???? EVERYTHING???? how odd!!!

Then he started giving us a hard bob, up and down... again... very stange.....

Unlike SP1 & 2... #3 DOES NOT like to be held and petted.... Hope this changes, because he is supposed to be a pet for my special needs son,,.. Beardies were recommended because they might crwl around on you...But don't reall go anywhere..
SP3 runs for the hill every chance he gets... He leaps off your hand and runs across the floor ... He used my DW hand as a ramp to jump out of hos 20 gallon tank... The other two were SO CHILL!!!! Truth be known, this one is more like my son than the other two... This pet was supposed to help him CALM DOWN!!!

 

[ShannyBeard]

Unlike SP1 & 2... #3 DOES NOT like to be held and petted.... Hope this changes, because he is supposed to be a pet for my special needs son,,.. Beardies were recommended because they might crwl around on you...But don't reall go anywhere..
SP3 runs for the hill every chance he gets... He leaps off your hand and runs across the floor ... He used my DW hand as a ramp to jump out of hos 20 gallon tank... The other two were SO CHILL!!!! Truth be known, this one is more like my son than the other two... This pet was supposed to help him CALM DOWN!!!

This ^^^^^ is why we have all advised you to get an older dragon for your child, before you got Spike #3.

The other two were "so chill" because they were sick. Babies aren't chill. They run around and explore. They are only "chill" if they are sick or dehydrated.

Don't complain - we gave you really good advice. We have all come here and spent our time caring about your problems and trying to help, but you would rather listen to a pet shop owner that has an incubator in the back room. He is not a breeder and that should be obvious considering the crappy husbandry advice he has given you. The fact that several of us who are knowledgeable and experienced have come one here and said the same thing should have given you a clue.

 

[diamc]

Pet stores try to make a sale most of the time. Also, they sell other pets and supplies beside what are needed for reptiles. And, the employees there haven't experienced or researched beardies like a large majority of us here have. We have NO reason to bad mouth a UVB bulb if it isn't true, we have nothing to gain except the gratification of knowing that we steer owners in the right direction and that we are sharing what we know to be the best UVB to help the beardie survive by being healthy. So, I don't understand why you used the "headbang" smilie to express your feelings about us giving you the right information on the safest and best UVB's to use.

Did you answer my question about the type of thermometer you're using or did I miss it?

Shannybeard is right, baby beardies ARE supposed to be very active and have boundless energy if they are healthy. For a baby beardie to be "so chill" is a major concern and something that stands out as being wrong! An older beardie close to a yr old or older would be more apt to be more docile and enjoy just sitting on someone's shoulder or lap. So, the energy that the baby has now isn't going to (and shouldn't) change until he is several months older, just want you to be aware of that.

It is normal and typical for a baby to lick everything and to run around, that show's he is inquisitive and curious about his surroundings.

 

[kjpetriel]

Just begginning to feel that I can't do a dang thing right.

 

[Spikey07]

Unfortunately pet stores and lots of breeders do not give correct information about bearded dragon care. I have found this site is really good for getting the right information and because of this site I have 4 healthy beardies, the oldest is now 6.

The information can be overwhelming at first but once you've got your head round it and got into a routine it becomes easy. They are also easier to care for as they become older.

Your beardie should calm down as he gets older, they are very quick when they're small.

The UVB light is very important to their health. You need to get the Zoo Med Repti-Sun 10.0 or Arcaida D3 12% UVB - both are tube UVB bulbs. The way to hang the light in your tank is to either higher the basking spot or hang the UVB tube in the tank by using command hooks or something similar. Your beardie should be able to get 6-8" from the UVB tube at the closest point and it should cover 3/4 of the length of the tank. This bulb needs to be replaced every 6-9 months as the amount of UVB emitted reduces over time.

As already mentioned the heat is also very important. The basking surface temperature (As measured with an infared temperature gun) should be 100-105 degreese for a young dragon. It can be reduced to a minimum of 95 degreese for an adult.

Young beardies also eat ALOT and he should be fed as much live food as he wants in a 10 minute period 2x a day at this age. This can be reduced to 1x a day when he's about 6months and reduced again at 12 months. As you are doing you should dust 1x feeding of live food a day with calcium and vitamins 2x a week. As your beardie gets older this can be reduced to calcium 2-3x a week and vitamins 1x a week as an adult.

The baths are great for hydration and will also get him used to being handled.

I hope he continues to do well.

 

[mischa]

Don't give up we've all been there, this is how you gain first hand experience and knowledge on how to properly take care of a beardie. And once you learn all the ins and outs you'll be on your way to being an awesome beardie parent. They're great family members and give lots of love, so give the little one time to mature and he'll be chill in no time! :lol: You Can Do It!

 

[XtinaBeardieMom]

As much as I respect every member who has posted a response to this thread, we can either chastise kjpetriel to no end or we can accept that mistakes have been made and move on in order to help this 3rd baby beardie survive & thrive. The last thing we want to do is drive this member away because of any perceived hostility. It is only natural for someone to assume that they can trust the information that a seemingly knowledgeable breeder has given them, and in my opinion this member kjpetriel has been reasonably receptive to what we've had to say given the fact that he/she doesn't know any of us or our qualifications or levels of expertise. No offense meant to anyone, and like I said - I very much respect everyone who has posted here and would follow their advice for the sake of my beardie any day. I just think that the goal is to keep ANY beardie owner who is willing to listen on the forum. I'm sure that 99% of us all wish that we would've known more before we came here, and this is kjpetriel's chance to do so.

To kjpetriel... I'm so sorry that a lot of the information you were given before now was incorrect. Just know that it is NOT uncommon for people to be very misinformed about bearded dragons and their care. I'm a very logical person, so trust me when I say I understand how counter-intuitive it is to trust a bunch of random people on a forum rather than breeders, pet shop employees, even books, articles, etc. All I can say is what others have said as far as the fact that we have NOTHING to gain by any information we give you, except high hopes for the health & well-being of your beardie. ShannyBeard and diamc are very correct in saying that baby beardies are not supposed to be "chill" if they are healthy... they should be active and hyper, kind of like a puppy. I'm so sorry that you were mislead, for the sake of your son. May I ask who recommended a bearded dragon to you as a form of calming therapy for him? Adult beardies are definitely more calm and easier (NOT easy, easier) to take care of. Even though I think of myself to be pretty knowledgeable in the care of beardies, I don't think I'd be ready to take on a baby for a good while. You may want to seriously consider re-homing your baby beardie and getting an adult instead, maybe a retired breeder or look on Craigslist. Or if you're willing, you may want to consider getting a different animal altogether like a cat or something. I truly wish the best for you, your beardie, and especially your son. If you decide to re-home your beardie just let us know, as we're more than willing and able to find a caring home for little Spike (not that you haven't been, it just seems like it's been a lot more work & frustration than what you thought you were signing up for).