Spike 2 dying... Same symptoms as #1

[RainMaiden]

You really need to get the temp of his basking spot higher. They need 95 F to be able to digest food, but juveniles need even higher. Preferably around 110 F.

 

[ShannyBeard]

Current lighting is a 75 watt basking light and a 75 watt uvb mini flouresent hanging 1 inch above the mesh tank top at the extreme left of the tank over his basking log.

Today the temp in the basking area was 90 and 84 on the opposite side of the tank.

What is your basking surface temperature?

This 'temp in the basking area was 90' is not what is the most critical temp for you to get. We need for you to measure the temp on the basking surface and it needs to be around 105*F. It can be from 100-110*F, really.

Did you get a sensor/probe thermometer yet? Or a temp gun? Please tell me you are not using the dial or wheel thermometer. We are all trying to help you not lose a third baby, and I'm not sure you are giving us an accurate basking surface temp. It's very important.

 

[ShannyBeard]

You really need to get the temp of his basking spot higher. They need 95 F to be able to digest food, but juveniles need even higher. Preferably around 110 F.

Quoted for truth. I just got 2 babies at the ReptiCon Tampa yesterday. You better believe me that within 30 minutes of getting home I had them set up and got a basking surface temp for both of them that is 107*F. That's the very first thing we did with them when we got home was to get their heating and lighting and temps perfect. It's the most important part of the set up.

 

[kjpetriel]

Good evening all.. a little more data...fyi… (WARNING, I’m an engineer and have a tendency to think things out TOO much and be long winded but please stay with me)…

Remember... Because of the humidity, our breeder recommended a more conservative/ balanced approach to temperatures. (Please read 1st page posts….)

TODAY
1 cm above the basking surface the peak temp today was 92 degrees F, the peak basking surface (by contact) was 97 degrees F and the cold side of tank peak temp was 85 degrees F.
In my home, peak temp today was 85 degrees F, humidity 60%.
I do NOT disagree with 107 degrees!!!!! But 107 with very little, or no, humidity...like a desert...

Obviously I am NOT an expert (after all we lost two very personable babies)... But I AM trying to take advice FROM the expert who keeps them in a 10 gallon tank until they are 12" inches long... He has been able to do this (Very Very VERY successfully) for the past 20 years!!! My opinion is that he can do this because his shop is environmentally controlled for ALL his reptiles, so the 10 gallon tank doesn’t need to be its own ecosphere, just a mild adjustment from a baseline.

The viv where the other Spikes two died was built by me (New) per the plans on http://www.timelessspirit.com/enclosure.html . After building it, I left it for 3 weeks to let the glues and grout to air out.. Spike #1 had the whole viv to himself (for 6 weeks), Spike 2 had 24” x 18” of floor space (for 3 – 4 weeks). Plenty big, plenty UVB and the basking temp was 100 – 110 degrees F.
Both died 4 – 5 days between sanitizing with “Wipe Out.”

I did finally look up adenovirus and the other typical health concerns, including the respiratory infection; but, all of these seemed to take DAYS to kill a dragon… These two died within 12 hours from when we played with them and had no concerns. 3 – 4 hours after playing with them, they seemed “Off” and not as energetic, 8 hours after that they were dead.

My final conclusion is that, either we baked them…. Or while we were gone.. One of the teens at home accidently injured them and won’t tell us.

Pray for spike #3… It is our LAST attempt at raising a baby.
Thank you ALL VERY much for all your help!!!!

 

[mischa]

That's what I was think either over heating or chemical fumes. But rest assured that spike 3 will defiantly be in my prayers. Best of luck and good vibes!

 

[Esther19]

Okay. If I'm understanding this right, you are basing the temperature gradient in your third baby's viv on the temperature of the expert whose entire shop is temperature controlled so that he can properly control the 10 gallon viv temps and keep his babies in there until they are 12 inches long? Sorry if I seem a bit dull.

 

[munchkins9802]

[quote
Obviously I am NOT an expert (after all we lost two very personable babies)... But I AM trying to take advice FROM the expert who keeps them in a 10 gallon tank until they are 12" inches long... He has been able to do this (Very Very VERY successfully) for the past 20 years!!! My opinion is that he can do this because his shop is environmentally controlled for ALL his reptiles, so the 10 gallon tank doesn’t need to be its own ecosphere, just a mild adjustment from a baseline.][/quote]

I am sorry just because this breeder (if you don't mind my asking who is this breeder? Does he breed on his own, or does he have a website,etc)has been doing this for 20 yrs doesn't necessarily mean he is right. My guess is this breeder also probably tells you no more than 10-15 crickets per day.
Would you like to be able to only live in your bathroom space? Okay nuff said on that. Most breeders (except yours of course) would tell you for babies the basking SURFACE temperature should be 100-105 degrees and measured by the digital thermometers with probes. people on here (breeders included) have had the experience of seeing that the dial thermometers can be off by as much as 20 degrees. a 10 gallon tank until they are 12" is absurd--and that would only last 1-2 months tops anyway. I have a 2 month old who is already 9 1/2" (was 6" when we got him) and there is no way he would be able to comfortably move in a 10 gallon tank.

On humidity--should be kept at the most 30-40% preferably about 30%--dont want it too dry, don;t want it to high. Please tell me you do not use calcium sand (#1 cause in bearded dragons for impaction)

We all here are not out to get your money like petshops and some others, we are here as experienced bearded dragon keepers , we don't claim to be experts but we speak honestly and from the heart due to our personal experiences. I wish you the luck with the new baby. If you get an adult there is NO way a 10 gallon would suffice anyway.

 

[kjpetriel]

Mischa,
I guess I still disagree about fumes… Spike 1 lived in the viv for 6 weeks, and #2 for 3-4 weeks. Healthy healthy health, then week and dead within hours. If it were a sudden exposure to fumes, like sanitizing the tank and putting him back too soon, then we would be able to relate the cleaning to the death. But cleaning was nearly 6 days earlier. If it were a prolonged exposure, like glue in the floor still curing, then I would think that we would have seen a slow degradation in their health or personality.

Esther19,
I don’t think you’re dull at all and I appreciate your input!

Hi Munchkins,
Thank you for writing..

#1 The breeder is local and has a shop. He doesn’t sell by the web. He owns several breeding pairs, buys/sells breeders as needed to avoid over breeding one blood line. He also works with several other local breeders who do so as a hobby. Since it seems to be a source of contention, I will not post his web site. It is sufficient to say that the local exotic pet vet referred me to this breeder to do the autopsy on Spike #2.

#2 How does one decrease the humidity? If humidity climbs to 60% in the room, then that’s what it is. We don’t bother with A/C since our summers are so short and the temps not very extreme.
With higher humidity, would you still recommend 100-107F? I know a 90F day here in New Hampshire is much more uncomfortable than a 90F day in Phoenix because of the humidity. Just like wind chill... Actual temperature doesn’t change because of the wind or humidity, the perceived temperature changes. The higher the humidity tends to insulate and make heating more efficient. Therefore, 95F at 60% could feel like 105 at 20%, just like 30F with no wind could feel like 0F with wind..

The viv I built was 105 in the basking area and 85 or so in the cold side in a hideaway. The current thought is that the heat with the humidity basically steamed the poor fellas.

But, as I stated the new basking area is 97 degrees.

#3 As mentioned in the earlier posts, the floor of the viv I built is stone tile. Tile glued into place, left for 3 days to dry. The grouted… Left for 5 days… Then sealed with a nontoxic sealer.. The Viv then sat for 3 week while I got around to cutting vent wholes, lighting/heating, and installing the plexiglass windows... Then spike 1 lived in it for 6 weeks or so..

One thought is that the stone tile holds onto the heat and radiates it back at night. (Which I did on purpose for the winter time temps) This may have prevented the viv from every really cooling off to a reasonable night time temp.

#4 I am NOT using a 10 gallon. I bought a NEW 20 gallon.
--
Everyone, I am curious, what state do you live in and what is the normal temperature humidity range?

Best regards all!!!

 

[ShannyBeard]

#2 How does one decrease the humidity? If humidity climbs to 60% in the room, then that’s what it is. We don’t bother with A/C since our summers are so short and the temps not very extreme.
With higher humidity, would you still recommend 100-107F? I know a 90F day here in New Hampshire is much more uncomfortable than a 90F day in Phoenix because of the humidity. Just like wind chill... Actual temperature doesn’t change because of the wind or humidity, the perceived temperature changes. The higher the humidity tends to insulate and make heating more efficient. Therefore, 95F at 60% could feel like 105 at 20%, just like 30F with no wind could feel like 0F with wind..

Yes with higher humidity I would still recommend that he have the proper temperatures, as he will not maintain proper body functions or digestion at the lower temp.

A dehumidifier would bring the humidity in the room down, and it would be better than keeping your dragon at the wrong temps. Can you look into purchasing a dehumidifier?

 

[twinmommy]

I live in North AL. The average high temps for June -Aug are 86-89. Th average humidity for the same time period is 70-74%. My basking spot is 105, rest of warm side is 90, and cool side 76. The humidity in her viv ranges 30-39%. My baby is approx 7 months old. She is 15 inches and 210 grams. She recently started a growth spurt since we added Turkish roaches to her diet. She still has crickets every day as well. We have a 40 gallon viv which is how we achieve the temp gradient. The temp gradient is important to their health. And you see with the proper temps, diet, and hydration, they will grow past 12 inches quickly.

The breeder /exotic reptile shop that I bought her from sold me all kinds of wrong things and gave me bad advice. I have lurked and read just about every post on this forum and followed the advice given. My baby is healthy and thriving thanks to this site. The way I see it, breeders only have their babies for a short time and can get away with some husbandry errors but we are raising these babies for the rest of their lifetime!
Sorry for the long post, just wanted you to see that proper temps can be achieved in a humid environment and that your baby will be healthier with them.
Good luck with your new baby!
Here's where I got the weather info : [url http://www.huntsvillealabamausa.com/new_exp/community_data/climate.html ][/url]

 

[ShannyBeard]

I live in North AL. The average high temps for June -Aug are 86-89. Th average humidity for the same time period is 70-74%. My basking spot is 105, rest of warm side is 90, and cool side 76. The humidity in her viv ranges 30-39%.

I am glad you posted this information. This is why I have been struggling to understand why their humidity is so high. I live in Florida and we have extremely high humidity. Right now our humidity on weather.com is 67% and it is about to rain. But you can bet the humidity in my vivs is below 40%.

If you run the fan and not the A/C it will raise your humidity, this is a true fact.

 

[RainMaiden]

kjpetriel- What are you using to measure the humidity in the enclosure? Hopefully not one those highly inaccurate dial hygrometers.

 

[kjpetriel]

I don't have anything for measuring humidity. The humidity I quoted was from the weather channel. During the summer, my house tends to be more humid than outside.

My wife changed out the 75 watt basking bulb for a 100 watt.

So current baby setup is:
1 20 gallon long
1 reptile carpet
1 small salad bowl in the cold section
1 small water bowl, also in the cold section
1 100 watt basking bulb sitting on top of the tank grate
1 75 watt mini floressent UVB (The kind that looks like the energy saver bulbs) sirring on the grate.
The basking log is 6" from the basking bulb and maybe 7 inches from the UVB which are sittin on top of the tank grate.
The lights have been on since 6:30 am ( about 9 hours) and the temp of the log at the closest point to the bulb is 99F.

What should I change?

----
This morning, I fired up the viv that I built. I am going to bring home a four channel thermometer that I can hook to my pc and record the temps of the basking area, and several other spots over three days. Friday is supposed to be over 90 again, so I should be able to get a clue if I baked/steamed these poor creatures. Unfortunately the instrument for recording humidity is being used.
That viv has a 150 watt basking bulb & 75 watt basking bulb, a 150 watt ceramic heater, a 10uvb fluorescent bulb. Timers, thermostats….

I try to maintain a daytime and a night time temperature..
This thing is like the space shuttle but with off the shelf parts... But there is always a chance I messed up.

 

[ShannyBeard]

What is your basking surface temperature, on the log, 6" away from the 100 watt light?

The reason I ask I have a 20 gallon long tank, just like you. I have a 50 watt zoomed basking bulb and my dragon's basking spot is on the ground of the viv, not close to the light like yours, and his basking surface temp last Friday was 104*F.

If I were to put a 100 watt basking light instead of the 50 watt then my basking surface temp would be well over 130*F. Or do you have this bulb on a dimmer?

 

[munchkins9802]

Also just because your house is x humidity it is very important that you figure out the humidity INSIDE the viv. Also, temps are accurately measured with digitals with probes. The last thing I would mention is please switch to the reptiSUN 10.0 TUBE light (reptiglos are controversary as are desert zilla's) Hope this helps you some as you try to fix it so # 3 makes it for you.