Reptaid Discussion

[vickson420]

Thank you Tami
I do think you are correct in regards to most of what you posted.Honestly I dont think that in very sever cases the reptaid alone would solve the situation and I do think the first course of action is proper husbandry so that there is no issue to resolve.I totally agree with you on your assessment of antibiotics including baytril and yes administering meds is always a stress factor.As for the Albon and Panacur while they certainly are not the harshest of medications and when given to on otherwise healthy animal it should result in nominal issues they are not without danger either.I personally am a firm believer that pre-emptive measures are really the only "safe" solution and that regardless of any alternatives vet care is a must!

Ajkr2
Thanks for the updates,keep them coming!

 

[jewl495]

If I may jump in here Eliot your gut flora check would be inconclusive after the fact. Really it should have been checked before treament and after. I will say that in a human body gut flora plays a HUGE role in our overall immune system. If you are sick there is a good possibility that your gut flora is lower than usual anyhow. It plays a big role in keeping the bad bacteria and fungus in check. If someone really wants to test the theroy they should have a fecal done before and after with no probiotics given... And another test fecal done before and after while giving probiotics and see what the results would be. I believe that probiotics would only inhance reptaids benefits it would be interesting to see the actual results of this. I'm in agreement with the others that probiotics should be given, but I believe they shold always be apart of healthy diet.

 

[ajkry2]

I am on day 5 of treatment with Sahara, no probiotics given. Sad to say, I didn't have the vet check flora before I started, should I have him check the flora when I'm finished with the treatment in November sometime? Just wondering if it would be a worthwhile addition to this discussion

 

[fresnowitte]

Tami Welcome to the site...I found your post quite interesting :wink: and you did point out some good points like this one....

Second, I am assuming that with the dramatic rehabilitation cases seen with Reptaid there were other factors contributing to the success of the animals involved. i.e. a new environment with proper housing, lighting, heating, feeding, etc. So while this product may be a major contributor, it certainly isn't a miracle cure and that should be made clear as well. It is not an excuse for poor husbandry.

There is never an excuse for bad husbandry...an yes correcting the diet and husbandy alone will help improve a beardies condition. However.....

Just for the record though(sense I didn't make that clear earlier) Itty Bitty didn't get the Reptaid immediately after I got her home it wasn't for several months after the diet & husbandry for her had been corrected that we decided to give Reptaid a try. So you know that before pic was not when she first came home. It was actually taken 2 days before she started the Reptaid. Just thought I'd clear that up.

As for an antibiotic not being harsh I do not agree personally. And this is what I mean...antibiotics kill all bacteria even the good. It is very important to replace the good. The problems I personally have had in the past is that most vets will not mention a probiotic. The first time that Zak-n-Wheezie were treated it was with the Albon and Panacur of course I realize they are not your normal beardie(s). Anyway on day 2 of being on the meds they began to develope yellow fungus...luckily for this site an it's very educated members I recieved the much needed information that I needed a probiotic and was able to clear up the fungus rather quickly. When I questioned my vet about it he was like probiotics? Naw! Okay I have found out first hand with several of my beardies on various occassions that a probiotic is needed. Close your ears guys...Okay just think about what happens to use as women when we take an antibiotic without replacing the good bacteria. So I believe that if a probiotic is not prescribe in conjunction with an antibiotic then it is harsh. Just my 2 cents!

 

[TamiLynne]

Thanks Barbara!

My post may have been confusing.. I do agree antibiotic therapy is harsh on any species. I am a "Baytril doesn't fix everything, doc" kind of tech. heh. To my knowledge Fenbendazole and Sulfadimethoxine are not antibiotics, though? I believe the former is an antihelminthic and the latter an antibacterial compound. Do correct me if I'm wrong! I have had talks with my docs about how they will occasionally round up the dosing range of these drugs and the general consensus is that they are much safer than antibiotics due to the fact that they target mostly the "bad bugs" (parasites) instead of the good stuff. Again, I'm wide open for new knowledge, that's what keeps our practice strong. That said, we do carry and prescribe Bene-Bac gel for use with reptiles undergoing any medical therapies.

Now that springs up a new question, can we talk about the benefits of Reptaid over Bene-Bac?

-Tami*

 

[fresnowitte]

Hi Tami!

That's really good to hear that your office prescribes the probiotic when reptiles are undergoing med therapy.

I did mean to categorize vets if it sounded like I did...just that so many don't offer probiotics and don't seem to think they are needed.

As for the Bene-Bac someone else will have to step in on this one as I have no experience with Bene-Bac. My beardies all love soy yogurt so that is the natural probiotic that is use in my house.

I'm interested in how this conversation is going. It's good to throw a vet tech into the mix. :wink:

 

[vickson420]

Well when you say benebac vs. reptaid what exactly do you mean?
The reptaid is not claiming to be a probiotic but instead an herbal antibiotic where as the benebac makes no such claim thus my concern that as with ANY other antibiotic a probiotic like benebac should be used wit the reptaid.I would not however recommend that reptaid be used in conjunction with traditional antibiotics because if the products claims that it is an antibiotic formula are true you would be double dosing and thus poisoning your animal.
I think the real question should be reptaid vs. baytril.Anyone have any thoughts on that?
My concerns as with any new drug regiment herbal or not is that it has not been tested nor in mass use long enough to truely know if there are any long term side effects to use of the product in particular long term use of the product.
BTW this statement:

Fenbendazole and Sulfadimethoxine are not antibiotics, though? I believe the former is an antihelminthic and the latter an antibacterial compound. Do correct me if I'm wrong! I have had talks with my docs about how they will occasionally round up the dosing range of these drugs and the general consensus is that they are much safer than antibiotics due to the fact that they target mostly the "bad bugs" (parasites) instead of the good stuff.

is totally true with exception that these drugs do not target only the "bad bugs".They do in fact aim for them but the good still get devastated along the way which is why cautionary probiotic should be used.
If in fact reptaid heals without loss of good gut flora then that would be an incredible improvement indeed but we need scientific evidence that points in that direction.We can assume all we want that because of the rapid energy and increased appetite there is proof of that but that isnt necessarily the case as pau d'arco along with some of the other herbs within this product are known energy stimulants.What I really want to see is labs before and after showing the gut flora count in several animals possibly even several species then I would be really impressed!

 

[ChamNW]

Wow, the posts are coming faster than I can read them! Let me jump in here.
We used to use Baytril for all infections.
We used to use Tetramycin ointment for eye infections.
And we used to use Panacur for parasites like roundworms, pinworms, hookworms, and tapeworms.
We used to use Flagyl (metronidazole) and Albon (sulfadimethoxine) for such parasites as Eimeria Coccidia and Isospora Coccidia.
So obviously you all realize that we spent a lot of time, effort, and money at the various vet's offices.
And we used benebac whenever we were treating with any of these drugs.

But

When we started to see what reptaid would do, we quit using ALL of those drugs. All of them.
And we quit using benebac too.
Of course I do not have scientific proof that Reptaid does not kill the good bacteria. But 18 months of experiece with a LOT of reptiles has proven it to me. We used to have to give a probiotic because the drugs wiped out the gut flora, the reptile would not eat after treatment. But when reptaid did just the opposite, it stimulated the appetite and made the animal strong and active, then we concluded that we did not nead the probiotic. Why give a probiotic if they are eating and growing and obviously getting better and better?

So having said all that, I would still be interested to know how the gut flora is tested. Perhaps one of the vets or vet techs could tell us what the procedure involves.

 

[vickson420]

Elliot it is the same basic fecal exam just viewing the slide for a different result.It is fairly simple and most herp vets should be capable of doing this in office.There is a general guidline in count followed but I honestly dont know the numbers off the top of my head.I will try to get in touch with my vet tomorrow and get the precise information for you tomorrow.

 

[pscaulkins]

I have used benebac. Never had any issues with it. Can't use soy yogurt, it causes diarrhea in all three of my beardies for some reason unless it's because it was the strawberry flavored. Benebac worked great this last year but I need to change up to something different.

Just because Reptaid is a herbal remedy, doesn't mean it doesn't have a harsh antibiotic. Pau d'arco is VERY harsh. And the side effects that everyone that is happy with it is from the Pau d'arco.

Semi has always had his gut flora checked when I took in a fecal. He never had issues with it when I gave him Albon or Panacur BUT after his treatment of Pau d'arco, he was missing all his gut flora. Sure Pau d'arco killed the aspergillus and I gave him lots of benebac but not enough apparently per my vet. At least the vendor I purchased it from, warned me to give a lot of probiotics. A long while later, Semi is dying because now his body won't hold the good gut flora. Please don't say I gave him to much Pau d'arco because I can tell you Reptaid has more in a dose then what I gave Semi. I mixed the Pau d'arco with water in a super strong dose then I dosed out the amount I would give Semi. Smelled them both and Reptaid smelled stronger of Pau d'arco then the mixture I mixed up. Pau d'arco has a horrible smell to me.

The only thing I want to add is just because your dragon is hyper, eats like a little piggy and looks healthy, doesn't mean they are. :wink:

My vet offered to teach me to check gut flora and I think I will take him up on his offer the next time we come in.

Elliot, I am not against Reptaid but I think anyone that gives it and doesn't give probiotics is asking for issues down the road maybe. At least my vendor warned me. They sell it to bird and reptile owners. Telling people they should use it is not going to make your product any less desirable.

It isn't a quick fix, it's an herbal antibiotic solution because Pau d'arco is an harsh antibiotic and antifungal herbal remedy. If a person takes certain antibiotics all the time then they stop working. I believe it's the same with dragons so Reptaid should be used only if you know you need an antibiotic or antifungal med. I don't know anything about the anti parasite herbs in the solution to comment on.

 

[ChamNW]

I appreciate the comments. I am very anxious to learn how to do fecal checks on my own animals for gut flora. I assume my binocular microscope which measures to 1000x magnification is sufficient to do the job. I know it can see bacteria. I am always learning and this new quest has my attention.

 

[spyder79]

I mixed the Pau d'arco with water in a super strong dose then I dosed out the amount I would give Semi. Smelled them both and Reptaid smelled stronger of Pau d'arco then the mixture I mixed up. Pau d'arco has a horrible smell to me.

you have no way of knowing if this is a valid statement your sense of smell can not detect what level of any chemical is in Reptaid. Your biggest problem is that the company that makes reptaid will not give out the propietary information on exactly how much of each thing is in it. not to mention that you were giving pur Pau D'arco by itself. In reptaid it is just one of the many ingredients. You have no idea how they all work together inside a dragon. For all you know there could be other ingredients that work with the Pau D'arco to lower its agressive nature. Unless you have some type of defined proof that there are dangerous amounts of this ingredient in Reptaid you shouldnt make a statement like "i smelled it so i know its true". Sorry but that doesnt really cut it.

 

[pscaulkins]

I mixed the Pau d'arco with water in a super strong dose then I dosed out the amount I would give Semi. Smelled them both and Reptaid smelled stronger of Pau d'arco then the mixture I mixed up. Pau d'arco has a horrible smell to me.

you have no way of knowing if this is a valid statement your sense of smell can not detect what level of any chemical is in Reptaid. Your biggest problem is that the company that makes reptaid will not give out the propietary information on exactly how much of each thing is in it. not to mention that you were giving pur Pau D'arco by itself. In reptaid it is just one of the many ingredients. You have no idea how they all work together inside a dragon. For all you know there could be other ingredients that work with the Pau D'arco to lower its agressive nature. Unless you have some type of defined proof that there are dangerous amounts of this ingredient in Reptaid you shouldnt make a statement like "i smelled it so i know its true". Sorry but that doesnt really cut it.

BUT neither can you say it doesn't. :wink: I should have said it was my personal opinion. You also can't say it works differently with other herbs unless, of course, you are a chemist.

 

[spyder79]

Thank you for clarifying that it was your opinion. Just as it is my opinion that my animals are in perfect health and i have used the reptaid xl on all of my adults in 3 month increments.

 

[jewl495]

Thank you for clarifying that it was your opinion. Just as it is my opinion that my animals are in perfect health and i have used the reptaid xl on all of my adults in 3 month increments.

So Brian you gave Reptaid to each of your dragons for 3 months at a time? Was this a boost or 10day periods with 2 day breaks for a 3 month course? This may have been mentioned on the other Reptaid thread but I'm curious what you treated for a 3 month period. I think this is the longest I heard of it being used.

Im using as a boost and I have seen a favorable change in Jazz. He seemed to want to brumate but I thought it was to early because it was still pretty warm here at the time. He was cleared of parasites so I gave Reptaid a try and he's doing great now.