Continuing problem :(

[NathanNatalie3002]

Hello guys, I have a major issue and I would appreciate any input from experienced owners or people who have had the same issue and this may be pretty long so thanks to anyone who reads.

I am at a major brick wall now, I have owned my 2 BD's for 2 months (Xena & Chacoby) both female, housed together, 4 months old. Housing together is not an issue for them they are very content and happy together. I have a 4ft tank which has a UVB 10 reptisun coil in the middle, which can be reached within 8" and closer on the log. I have a 60W basking bulb with a slate rock underneath which stays warm throughout the day (not enough to burn them it is not a heat rock.) The temps are 105 basking 90-100 mid to basking and 80 cold end. I look after them very well, in fact too much i'd say haha! Xena is eating 3-4 times a day, has piled on weight since I got her and is very active, social and also loves greens despite being only 4 months. I feed Xena 4th brown crickets, and the occasional small hopper (locust) kale, watercress, peas and rocket depending what I buy. When I first got them, around 3 weeks after I bought them, Chacoby ws being fed as normal in the morning and was not interested one bit. She then started violently shaking her head, was sick and went very limp for about a week, no response, hardly moved, did not eat or poo. I took her to the vet, and I got given a feeder needless syringe which involved me having to force feed Chacoby 3-4 times a day by placing the metal feeder down her throat the vet said it could be a number of things and to send a poo sample off when she is back to normal again. I fed her dioralyte, water and vegetable baby food through the syringe. Luckily, I only had to do this twice and she sprung back to life and started eating again but very very little. She was back to her complete normal self for 2 weeks, and I was ready to send of poo smples, for both of the BD's incase it was parasites. I did but it down to feeding her black crickets once as there were no brown available, or that she didn't bask for long enough etc, but the crickets were small enough etc. So because she doesn't eat much I began feeding both Xena and Chacoby (seperate) in a feeding tank. Xena is quite happy with that but Chacoby hardly ate. I then put some crickets in the tank and Chacoby went mad for them! I think she stuffed her face and the morning after- she was sick again This time it is much worse, I have resorted to the feeder needle again, but now I have some avipro plus and are using that instead of Dioralyte, this was given to me by the guy I bought them off but he ordered it in from a very reputable herp vet who he called for advice, but he lives miles away! This time, she has not picked up after a week and a bit She doesn't ever open her eyes, she is so tiny and fragile, I do manage to get the food down her but it's not helping I don't think. Earlier in the week i noticed a pink tint to her urates and this has now gone it appeared 3-4 times. The vet last time said that if it was an internal problem of hers, then she would not survive surgery and that any vet would be brave to do an op on a bearded dragon so small. She keeps laying completely flat and then sometimes usually after feeding she will startle and bob her head up and sit like that for a while and then return to laying flat. I can't see the problem being with how I keep them as Xena is perfectly fine, I am beginning to think it is an internal problem and I don't know what to do The vet will tell me the same thing again until she is back to normal then I can do all the other things like blood etc, but I only found out about all that on here, he did not mention any of that. At the minute she is just too weak I have no idea what else to do with her, I am so scared she might die, and she doesn't deserve it, she is such a little character! I am scared that me syringe feeding her is just hindering her and keeping her alive. This is good of course, but I do not want to be doing this if she is in pain I would much rather have her put to sleep but the vet and I have no idea whats wrong I just want to help her and for her to be her little old self again, I thought, maybe she can not handle food very well? Internal? (not sure what these can be) The link below is the post related to what happened 3 weeks ago.

I hop someone can help me

Thanks


viewtopic.php?f=45&t=162090

 

[AtlasStrike]

You need to separate them, in this case that means getting Xena a new tank and leaving your sick baby in the one she is in. Beardies can be aggressive towards each other, and can "psychologically" torture a more submissive beardie to the point where it will stop eating and eventually die. You should also switch out to the tube repti-suns as the spectrum is different, and better for them without any harmful side effects. Just because one is sick and another is not does not mean that everything is perfect. Some animals are more sensitive than others.

 

[Valerie]

I would seperate them and then I would keep feeding her after she has warmed up for a bit.I am too feeding my bd by syringe but my bd is not as far along as yours. It could be something internal but I would not give up. Sometimes vets will give up faster then us. If I am correct the pink nurites [spelling] is not blood but calcium that is given to them or something like that. I would not worry about this.
I would try some probiotics you can get from pet stores. It would help any good bacteria killed off by her previous meds. plus it may help with her digesting her foods now and her digestive tract.
I would keep her warm at night by using a heating pad set on low with a nice fluffy towel in between her and the heating pad.
I would continue hand feeding her and pray for the best.
Hopefully someone will come along with more.
I am cofused, was her fecal neg?
Valerie

 

[NathanNatalie3002]

I understand that separating them will be beneficial in some cases, but I can not afford to get another big tank for about 3 weeks until I am payed. Xena and Chacoby seem fine together though, Xena just keeps looking at her and will not sit on top of her when basking as she did when she was lively. When both healthy and lively, they are also fine together, they both sit on top of one another equally and Chacoby is actually the more dominant one, and was always the larger of the two until she got ill and is obviously not growing as fast now. I didn't manage to get a fecal, I was going to do it at the end of that week and then she got ill again. Xena just seems to look over at Chacoby, and always licks her back quickly if she has been taken out of the tank (Xena) when she gets back in.

I really do not think that she has an issue just that she wonders why she is like she is.

I don't know much about heats mats and I have heard mixed reviews, would it be possible for me to use a blanket wrapped around a hot water bottle? The tank does stay at 70-80 until morning when it is about 60-75 my room is very warm. By the repti suns do you mean the long tubes? Also how would I go about fitting one of these and what specific one can I get? I am in the UK. The vet did not give me any meds, he told me to just use the dioralyte (similar to pedialyte) and baby food. Like I say I got the Avipro plus this time as this was recommended. Is critical care any good? Which would be the best to use? I a hoping to take her to the vets next week a different one this time and I just hope they don't give me the same advice, I think experience from you guys is more beneficial to my little one.

Has anyone ever had an issue like this? I pray she does survive and if she does I am going to have to let her eat a limited amount of crickets as it does seem that she just can not handle too many and her eyes are bigger than her belly. When she got well again, it was rare she would go for crickets, about 1 a feeding maybe 2, and sometimes she would eat 6-7 a feeding and this is when it happened again.

Thankyou

 

[reptile10futbol]

Sorry to hear about your problem.
First I would recommend getting some sort of divider to divide the tank, a piece of plywood would do fine so that they do not see each other. But the will need thier own basking areas.
Next try to disinfect the tank every other couple of days throughout the week, this will help your beardie alot.
Get a fecal test done ASAP even if your beardie is still sick, to eliminate the doubts for any parasites or worms.(make sure you go to a reputable vet for reptiles, as other vets can meke the problem worse).
Next get a bottle of acidophilus+ it will help your beardie digest the food.
Be very carefull where you get your crickest from, it is best to order from a cricket farm where their facilities are very clean.
I avoid black crickets at all cost my beardies also have trouble with them, so therefore I only get brown crickets.
Continue feeding with a syringe, make sure half consists of some sort of insectivore. They need the protein from it.
At night do not let the temp drop to low, try to keep temp above 70 deg f. For a while until your beadie recovers.

Don't give up, and hopefully your beardie recovers. Hope this helps.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am sorry Xena is having so much trouble.
You will need to separate them. Try dividing the tank right now, to decrease the stress on her right now since she is so ill.
The Reptisun 10 tube bulb would be a better choice, or the Arcadia D3 12% tube bulb, either one. Where are you located?
The Reptisun coil/compact light is hazardous for their health & can cause detrimental health issues along with eye problems, too.
Please turn off the coil light right now & just use a basking light to see if this helps out initially.

What is your temperatures in the tank? What type of thermometer do you use, a round stick on type, or a digital probe?
I would continue to use the feedings but the tube can be stressful. Try using just the syringe to feed her to decrease stress.
The Avipro is fine to use for her. How often are you using that & do you use a calcium supplement also? The pink tint to her urates was most likely due to the supplemenation & the Dioralyte. It does affect the urates in this manner.

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[dragonlover3]

Hi,
I know you think they are just "fine" together....but obviously not. You have one deteriorating to almost death ...That's pretty much
what happens. Everyone is telling you the same thing to separate them or divide the tank. Might just be something worth listening too on
an advice forum of beardie keepers....just saying! There may be other issues going on unrelated to their co-habitation but that needs to be corrected first to be ruled out as a causative factor so the little one has a chance for recovery.

Please Read This! viewtopic.php?f=6&t=154908 Then separate them or divide the tank as everyone is advising.

I would Correct the UVB bulb as soon as possible. The coil is known to cause eye and health issues and can be contributing to the problem! The ReptiSun 10.0 tube is recommended.

You can offer supportive care to help your little one survive and recover. It will be intense and time consuming.
Keep the little one warm! Keep the little one basking. If it doesn't go to the basking spot on it's own in the morning, place it there but make sure the temp is not to hot. Needs to be 105*F to 110*F. It needs the heat for proper digestion. Also heat boosts the immune system.

Keep the little one hydrated. If he/she isn't eating, it isn't drinking either and hydration is important since they can dehydrate further with the heat. A couple of warm baths 2 or 3 times a day for about 10 minutes each can help. Several times a day try dripping a drop at a time on to the snout, it may lick it off. If it does continue a drop at a time but don't get water in the nose holes. Hydration is very important for recovery.

Syringe feedings 2 or 3 times a day. I've heard Critical Care recommended but I haven't used it myself. Using just the syringe without the tube will take a bit more time to feed but will be less stress on your little one. Baby food squash, plain chicken and plain turkey are very good to use diluting it with Pedialyte or the equivalent. I would get some kind of probiotic and feed it to your little one daily with a feeding. Soy yogurt works as well and is inexpensive if you can't get benebac or acidophilus. Soy yogurt...not dairy yogurt as dragons don't digest dairy well and your little one is already having an issue with eating and digestion. What supplements are you giving? You can add a pinch of calcium to a feeding every weekday and add a pinch of vits to a feeding every weekend day.
Good luck with your little one, I hope he recovers for you !
Amanda

 

[NathanNatalie3002]

Hello thank you to all that replied, it is 10.15pm in the UK, and I have been busy at Uni all day but luckily I can come back 2 or 3 times in the day to check on them. So hence the late reply. I went to the pet shop today where I got the dragons from to ask if I could borrow a spare tank to separate them, as I would have to drill holes etc and fit new lights if I divided, which I cant do so it was easier to get a new one. it is a private shop and I know the guy quite well but he only had brand new ones which he has given me until payday £85...

I only have the stick on temp gauges at the minute, I get payed next week and I do not have enough money at the moment until then to change the UVB- not sure how to fit it? And change to digital thermometers.

If the temps are too high, what do people do about it? I have got the temps correct in the Viv which they were both in, but this is 4ft and I have now disinfected it and Xena is still in there. The new branch I bought was too high for Chacoby to sit on in her current state, so I have given her the rock from the previous tank, in her new 3ft tank and I have given Xena and extra big branch (hope she does not mind the change to the environment.)

I left Chacoby in the new tank for 2 1/2 hours, under the basking light, she had not moved at all but when I got in her eyes were open and they have not been for days! Yes I use ZooMed Repti Calcium with D3, and I can not get much into Chacoby these days as she is ill and was concentrating on giving her Avipro. I use a small egg cup which I change every morning, mix about a tea spoon full of that into mineral water and add the baby food. 2-3 times a day depending on how stressed out she is.

I am new to bearded dragons, I got them as a present and was not prepared but I am willing to do everything I can to ensure they will be looked after correctly.

So I have some questions, and anymore feedback would be brilliant, thank you all so much!

1) When i change the UVB light to reptisun 10, how do I go about it?
2) When the temps get too hot, how do I deal with this efficiently? I am worried about Chacobys new tank as it is 3ft as opposed to the 4ft before. I have a 40W basking lamp and the cool end is still too warm.
3) I do not want Chacoby to overheat, as she isn't moving, so how often should I move her between cold/warm?
4)Any other feeding suggestions for her?
5) My vet told me that it was important to ensure that the metal feeder needle went down her throat so then I didn't block her airways, which he said were at the front of their tongue? I have no idea about this and if I could just squirt some food in her mouth so she can start to swallow properly herself I would prefer this, and would like to know where to squirt it.
6)As I say, Chacoby has had her eyes open this evening and is looking a bit brighter, but I don't know whether to be even more worried now as only since tonight has she been gaping. Not like Xena does, but more of a hold open and then close repeated 4-5 times. I was worried she was too hot or does this mean she is gasping for air?
7) Also about Xena, she is getting bigger now and the odd time if she cant see me going up to the tank and is startled, she bulges her beard 3-4 times which I know is normal, but as she does she shakes her head like Chacoby used to before she vomited. Is this normal?


I probably have a lot more questions but I will post back in response again to all you kind people.

Thanks again!

 

[NathanNatalie3002]

Sorry again to post but now Chacoby is gasping for air She has no mucus or anything and has NEVER done this before the humidity was fine and I am so worried What can I do?

 

[NightFury]

When beardies open their mouth like that they are dissipating heat, it isnt anything you would have to worry about. How close to the light source is she right now? do you have the probe thermometer or circle one? what kind of basking bulb is it and how many watts is it?

 

[NathanNatalie3002]

She is definitely not dissipating heat, I am in the UK and it is night time hear so her lights are out, but I am keeping an eye on her. I can not see her breating until she does this and it has happened about 20 times in the last half an hour. Should I prop her head up as she is very limp anything I can do to get her breathing normally again

 

[NightFury]

1) When i change the UVB light to reptisun 10, how do I go about it? You will have to buy a new fixture for it, you can get one at walmart, make sure its a fixture that does not have any plastic blocking the bulb, you want a bare bulb in the tank with nothing blocking it. you can also use industrial strength Velcro to mount it in the tank.
2) When the temps get too hot, how do I deal with this efficiently? I am worried about Chacobys new tank as it is 3ft as opposed to the 4ft before. I have a 40W basking lamp and the cool end is still too warm. if it gets to hot raise the bulb higher up (you can buy a stand to do this) a 40W is a small bulb though and it should not be an issue. As long as your beardie is in a temp thats not hotter than 110 than she should be ok. The cool side is just fine at 80 degrees.
3) I do not want Chacoby to overheat, as she isn't moving, so how often should I move her between cold/warm? Leave her under the heat, you do not need to move her as she needs it to fight what she is dealing with.
4)Any other feeding suggestions for her? just stick to a squash and turkey/chicken baby food and critical care like they said is a good thing to use if you can get it from the vet, it is supposed to replace whatever it is she is missing in her diet. When she starts to eat on her own I recommend feeding Collard Greens or Mustard Greens for her vegetable part of her diet. Squash is also good to feed.
5) My vet told me that it was important to ensure that the metal feeder needle went down her throat so then I didn't block her airways, which he said were at the front of their tongue? I have no idea about this and if I could just squirt some food in her mouth so she can start to swallow properly herself I would prefer this, and would like to know where to squirt it. Gently squirt a little of it into the side of her mouth slowly so you don't give her too much at once, if she seems to swallow a little bit on her own then just slowly feed it to her at her pace.
6)As I say, Chacoby has had her eyes open this evening and is looking a bit brighter, but I don't know whether to be even more worried now as only since tonight has she been gaping. Not like Xena does, but more of a hold open and then close repeated 4-5 times. I was worried she was too hot or does this mean she is gasping for air? It means she is trying to dissipate extra heat from her body so she doesnt overheat, its a normal beardie thing.
7) Also about Xena, she is getting bigger now and the odd time if she cant see me going up to the tank and is startled, she bulges her beard 3-4 times which I know is normal, but as she does she shakes her head like Chacoby used to before she vomited. Is this normal? Yeah that is ok, my baby one I have does this and hes just fine. My previous one did this also. Young Beardies are a little skittish but will warm up more when they get more used to you.

 

[NightFury]

She is definitely not dissipating heat, I am in the UK and it is night time hear so her lights are out, but I am keeping an eye on her. I can not see her breating until she does this and it has happened about 20 times in the last half an hour. Should I prop her head up as she is very limp anything I can do to get her breathing normally again

Tell me does she make any poping or weird noises when she raises her head and opens her mouth like that?

 

[NathanNatalie3002]

Tell me does she make any poping or weird noises when she raises her head and opens her mouth like that?[/quote]

Yes and she has only started doing it tonight. A slight click noise every now and again.

 

[NightFury]

Sounds like your beardie may very well be suffering with RI (Respiratory Infection)

Be sure she has enough heat in her tank at the moment, Since she is trying to sleep a temp of high 80s to low 90s would be good for night but in the day she needs it to be around 110.

Symptoms of RI are:

Raspy breathing

Forced exhalation causing a coughing noise

Gaping as they have difficulty breathing

Puffing up around the throat

Mucus around the nose and mouth

Loss of appetite


Could explain her loss of appetite as well. I would get her to a Vet ASAP as the faster she is treated the better she has a chance. This can be deadly for beardies if untreated.