Worried about Vitti

[Ostrommaysi]

A week ago I purchased a juvenile Bearded dragon, which I named Vitti, from a local agricultural pet store. Upon purchase she seemed healthy and responsive so I chose her as my first ever beardy and took her home with a bearded dragon kit. Which consisted of a 30X12hX12L tank with screen cover, alfalfa substrate, A ceramic water bowl, 1 Zilla 20 watt desert 50 UVB. A zilla 150 watt120v day blue light and a night heat light of unknown watt and output. I added a second shallow plate full of water just in case as well as small crickets as her primary food source. Also a basking log.

For the first half week things seemed fine. She moved around a lot, ate her crickets but I noticed she wasn't drinking to my knowledge so I could put moisture on my finger and rub droplets against the end of her mouth to get her to lick it. Soon I noticed she closed her eyes a lot and started to become less active. Looking online I found out that they are omnivores so I began to feed her cabbage, kiwi and cucumbers in addition to crickets. For the next day I monitored her and she would not even approach the veggies or consume them when I put them on a spoon and tried to show her them. (The veggies were minced in a food processor so they were near paste level chopped.) Looking online again I learned that the zilla lamps could be hurting her eyes so I immediately removed them and upon recommendation yesterday I ordered a 100w Megaray Flood UVA/UVB/heat light. (which I ordered today) It however is not here yet. I got her a small Sun Glo 50 watt heat/UVA light to be a temp solution and switched her bedding to newspaper, changed to mealworms and began dusting them with vitamins. (I switched because I hear of a lot of issues with crickets and diseases) Also I clean her dishes and switch out food roughly three times a day

That brings me to my current dilemma, she has her eyes closed most of the day and is barely active. When misting her or even handling her she will barely respond or even open her eyes that much to check on what is happening. She will still eat her meal worms and she has pooped even today but I'm worried about my lil girl. I don't have the money or the means to take her to a herp vet or even a regular vet and am trying everything I can find to try and get her to recoop. I feel time is waning and it just breaks my heart to see her as she is. I am at the end of my rope and everywhere I look online for help as conflicting information. I know I've not done everything right but Im trying to learn before its too late. Please help me save my lil Vitti

BTW I know I was an ***** to buy the Beardy kit and I know my failures might be the end of her but I am trying my best with what I know. I just want to help her be happy and healthy I love my lil girl

 

[sara24354]

I am going to offer these suggestions to you,first,get either a reptisun 10 florecent tube bulb or a mercury vapor bulb as those are best for proper UVB.Next get heating bulbs (either pet store,or cheaper and works just as good,household bulbs) and get the correct temps for Vitti,basking 100-110* cool side 75 to85*.Meal worms are a no-no,they have a hard chitin shell and will cause impaction in beardies,crickets,butter worms,hornworms,and phoenix worms are good staples. As for the veggies, go to www.beautifuldragons.com for a list of good things to feed them,cucumbers,lettuce,etc.........have no nutritional value they are mostly water,and at this age your dragon may not many if any veggies,but they need to be offered daily so that your dragons gets used to having them. Someone else will be able to help you more,I am sure,this will get you started though.

 

[Ostrommaysi]

Thanks for the helpful advice I just hope it isn't too late for my baby

I ordered the megaray light for her UV and heat needs I heard they were among the best. As for food I'll go back to feeding her crickets as well as offering stuff on the food list at the website you mentioned.

I gotta wait for the bulb to get here but hopefully that will help her out. I just fear that it may be too late she seems so incredibly weak. I feel like the worst beardie owner ever and It kills me having to see her like this. I would buy her everything but I've stretched my funds thin trying to correct my mistakes as it is. She will move around, find a sleeping spot, get on her basking log and eat but she has her eyes closed way to much to be healthy. Yes I caught it within a week but it just doesn't seem fast enough and she seems to get progressively worse despite my efforts. When I bought her I had no idea there would be such a difference in lighting and such. My biggest pain is knowing its my fault shes like this and she doesn't deserve to hurt because of me.

Could her eyes be permanently injured? She will open them on occasion to look about but then she will close them again

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It is NOT your fault that this happened, & that you purchased the setup kit. It is unfortunate that those Zilla T-50 bulbs are even on the market still if they have not fixed them.
If she is not eating, then try to give her a slurry of chicken or turkey baby food, & squash baby food along with some extra fluids too. Use a plastic dropper or a plastic syringe to drip food onto her nose so hopefully she will eat some.
It is good that you don't have another UVB light on her though at the moment, because it usually takes up to a week for their eyes to be back to normal. You should start to see some improvements here pretty soon. Also, you could get some sterile saline solution to put in her eyes, daily, to help since they are probably dry & irritated.
The mealworms should not be fed as a staple though because they are too fatty & not very nutritious. They also can cause or contribute to impaction as well. Try phoenix worms or butterworms for another worm variety. Crickets & roaches both are very good feeders that can be used for staples. Usually crickets from the pet store can be dirty yes, but a lot of people buy them in bulk from online & they are normally much healthier than what you will get in the pet stores. So you might want to consider that option too if you want to go the cricket route for awhile.

Let us know how he is doing!

Tracie

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Sounds like your having some difficulty with your lighting. First, take a breath and stop beating yourself up. Many of us have fallen victim to bad advice from pet stores. You realized pretty quickly that things weren't right and your making the effort to correct the problems. Pat yourself on the back for that! Let me offer some advice that should help your girl out while you wait for the better bulb to arrive. First, get rid of those zilla bulbs immediately! That is what is causing the eye issues and her lethargy (lack of energy). Use the dome you currently have and put a regular household bulb or indoor flood bulb in it. Vitti can do without the uvb for a few days while you wait for the megaray, with no ill effects, but, her exposure to the bad quality bulbs needs to be stopped ASAP. When a dragon is exposed to improper lighting, this can seriously effect their eyes, to the point of causing conjunctivitis (infection) or, in severe cases, blindness. A regular white, household bulb or flood bulb can be used to provide light and heat without damaging the eyes. Once those bulbs have been changed for a few of days you should see a vast improvement. She should be opening her eyes fine within a few days to a week. You also need to get your temps in that 100-110 range. Aim for 105F on the basking spot, the opposite side (cool side) should be around 85 during the day. This gradient in temps provides them with areas at multiple temps that they can choose from depending on their needs. If you got a dial thermometer with the set up, toss it. Those are worthless, they can be off by 20 degrees. Pick up an Acurite thermometer from Walmart ($12) with a cord and probe or get a temp gun ($25). The Acurite is pretty accurate and works fine. The purpose of the high temp in the basking spot is that beardies need these temps in order to trigger their metabolism and digestion. Too low of temps and they can't digest food properly, they begin eating less and can become ill. I would also suggest looking into a larger viv, soon. The one you got is close, but a little small once she gets closer to adulthood. Minimum size for an adult dragon is 36"long X 18" deep X 18" tall. They truly need at least this much room in order to live comfortably and to be able to get the temp ranges that are necessary. The Megaray you order can create too much heat if the viv is too small. At night, you can use either a ceramic heat emitter or a black night bulb (I have used these for years with no problems)-just don't use the red ones as dragons can see red and it'll keep them awake. You only need one of these at night for heat to keep temps above 65F on colder nights. During the summer they usually aren't necessary.

Next, I'm glad you got rid of the alfalfa substrate. Use paper towel, newpaper or non-adhesive shelf liner for now, then once you get a larger viv you can put in ceramic tile (easy to clean and much safer than a lot of particulate substrates like sand). The problem with alfalfa is the dust and smell. This type of substrate can cause Upper Respiratory Infections when the dragon breaths in the dust. If this stuff gets wet, it can mold and harbor bacteria, again causing URIs. All around a bad substrate for lizards.

Next, get rid of the water bowls. Bearded dragons don't need a water dish in the viv. This can increase humidity levels too much (levels should be below 45%) and cause URIs-one of the most common causes. Also, a dragon gets most of it's moisture from it's greens and feeders so a water dish is not necessary. If a water dish is in the viv, they tend to run through it or poop in it making it dirty, and then it harbors more bacteria. They usually won't drink from it. If you give your dragon a bath, water the warmth used for a human baby, they will sometimes drink in the bath (mine never do), but they absorb water through the skin as well as their vent. Once a week is sufficient. Providing healthy, fresh veggies and feeders will ensure that she gets plenty of the moisture that she needs.

No more meal worms please. Meal worms have a very hard shell (chiton) that is very hard for dragons to digest and they can cause impaction. The crickets are fine, but yes, they are commonly the cause of parasites. Look into feeders like dubia roaches, silk worms, butter worms Pheonix worms and once she's at least 16 inches long, Super worms. All of these feeders are very nutritious and great staple foods. For greens: Collard greens, turnip greens, mustard greens, and endive are great staples. To this add shredded squash regulary like: butternut, pumpkin, spaghetti squash, yellow squash, acorn squash. You can also give sweet potato, shredded. For a treat give blue berries, raspberries, strawberries, small bites of bananas or grapes. Wax worms can also be offered once a week as a treat, but only a couple as they are very high in fat. It's not necessary to chop her veggies quite that small, just cut them into pieces that are bite sized. The rule of thumb for feeders is no longer that the distance between the eyes and let her eat as many as she wants in 15 minutes, 2 times a day until she reaches adulthood.

Now, for calcium and a multivitamin. Get a calcium powder that is phosphorous free and NO D-3. The D-3 they get from their uvb and it's too much if it's added to the calcium. Phosphorous free is important because feeders like crickets contain phosphorous and a dragons blood levels of calciumhosphorous should be a ration of 2:1, too much phosphorous is not good. For a multivitamin, Reptivite is fine. Calcium should be dusted on one meal a day, 5 days a week. The multivitamin on one meal a day but ONLY 2 days per week. You don't want to give a multivitamin more often as too much causes excess to build up in their kidneys. And, only a light dusting of either. Once they reach 18 months old (adult) it should be 3 days calcium and 1 day vitamin.

Make sure to get your temps up (this is truly very important), do away with any spiral type bulbs, and the zillas. Switch to the regular household or flood bulb for now (it's also less harsh on the eyes as they are less intense). Keep an eye on Vitti over the next day or so. She should start showing signs of less discomfort in her eyes and should start perking up pretty quickly. If she doesn't start looking better in a couple of days or if she looks any worse than she does now, then call a vet asap. I think she will be fine in a few days, but always lean towards the side of caution with these guys. Your headed in the right direction and your getting quite the crash course. Again, don't beat yourself up for falling victim to the less than knowledgeable people at a pet store, it's happened to all of us at some point. Hang in there!

Let us know how she's doing.

 

[Ostrommaysi]

Thanks for the awesome advice and support all! I wish I had known about this site beforehand. Sadly I thought I had a decent grip on what was required, when in fact I knew next to nothing at all. I will definitely begin steps to correct the problems immediately. Luckily I still have some small crickets in my cricket keeper that she can eat. Im glad to hear that she will get a lot of hydration from the foods they eat I was severely concerned about her not using her dish. Luckily she still eats pretty good and poops every other day with no irregular colorations (to my knowledge, usually a bunch of brown with a bit of white) Just her eye closing and her relative unresponsiveness was worrying me. its really easy when you've never had a reptile before to assume the eye closing at first is just them enjoying the light. And the rest is just loving paranoia like a parent to their child, "oh shes doing this" or "oh whats going on now"

Much of this could have been avoided had I been able to find reliable information. So much misleading information out there. Immediately Ill get her the right veggies and a household light to tide her over. The bigger vivarium sadly will have to wait a little longer, I really want to make sure I can get her back on the right feet with lighting/uvb, food and general health. Plus with college I wasn't expecting to have to re buy everything because of bad information. (Ive actually had to pawn off my HDTV to help pay for the megaray and all the other stuff I've had to rebuy.) Ive been unable to find a herp vet around where I live but I'm still searching.

Do any of you know any online sites where I can buy good crickets or reptile vitamins? The stores seem very unreliable for good products the more and more I learn. Right now I'm using Wardleys reptile multi vitamins which has 90g of calcium, 40g of Phos. and 10,000 I U of D3.(among other things) It was the only one I could find and I really wanted her to have vitamins

Again I thank you all for your generous help, Ive only had Vitti for a week now and already I have the attachment of parent to child. I want her to have the best life and happiness I can humanly provide.

 

[sara24354]

As for ordering crickets try www.premiumcrickets.com,they have good prices and are wonderful to deal with,there is also www.ghanns.com,etc.........www.petmountain.com has great prices on calcium and vitamins and they usually have a coupon to help out.Please don't beat yourself up over this,pet stores want to make a sale and will sell things that are not good for dragons sometimes,also the people who work there(most of the time) aren't really knowledgeable about what they sell for beardies,don't keep them under proper lights etc...........If you have further questions,please post them and we will help you out. Also PLEASE keep us informed on how Vitti is doing.
Sara

 

[Ostrommaysi]

I will definitely let you know how Vitti is doing. Again I can't thank you all enough for the info, gives me hope for my little girl when I have better information to go with

 

[DragonMomSandy]

It really is tough when you have to re-do their setup after spending so much on the original stuff. I would talk to the store to see f they will let you return some of the bulbs at least. Explain to them that it's causing health issues for Vitti and maybe they'll let you return it. The vitamin supplement I would lay off of for now. Don't use it daily as it has too much of everything in it for daily use. www.petmountain.com is really a good site and their prices are pretty cheap for things like the calcium.

As Tracie mentioned (she's an awesome source for health info on dragon), you can use the sterile saline solution to ease any discomfort to the eyes. As long as Vitti is eating her crickets and greens as well as daily, well formed poop (not runny but not real hard-especially the white urates) that is a good sign. If she stops eating the slurry mix is a good way to go.

As far as getting a new viv, that is not something that has to be done immediately, you have a few months to take care of that. The only concern is that with the size she is currently in the megaray may be too strong and get the viv too warm. You might need to use the household flood bulb (65 to 75 watt is usually enough) and a ReptiSun 10.0 uvb strip. If you find that the megaray is putting off too much heat, let me know I'll help you find what you need to get this alternative set up as cheaply as possible. Also, VERY important, when the megaray arrives it needs to be plugged in and on for 12 hours a day, for 3 to 4 days in an area AWAY from the viv. This is called a burn in period. All MVB bulbs require a burn in period as they put off some fumes during the first few days that can be harmful and running them for 3 to 4 days prior to putting them on the viv eliminates this making them safe to use.

Sadly, you are correct. There is a lot of bad info out there and pet stores are the biggest source of mis-information. Many, many people have been through what you are going through right now. Don't give up and stick around here for a while, we'll all help you get the right info and help teach you to be a great beardie mommy! Your heart is in the right place and you are headed in the right direction! Forming an attachment to these wonderful creatures happens very quickly and you find yourself obsessed with their care. Trust me, this is a good thing as they are much healthier and happier because of it!

Keep us posted on how she's doing!

 

[Ostrommaysi]

I have not fed my Vitti yet today as her eyes were really acting up.(It would seem the Sun glo bulbs are no good either so today I will run to the store and grab some normal bulbs as I only have coiled house bulbs in the house.) So I took her out of her tank to hold and gauge her reactiveness levels. At first she relatively weak and unresponsive.I also wanna make note that since her dilemma started she was a brighter color, her head more yellow then its dark browns and her belly white instead of white with dark brown/black markings like she had when I got her. I grabbed her mist bottle and misted her and my hand. I let my finger get wet and put it up to the end of her mouth. She started to lick the moisture from my finger. Then I grabbed a spoon and squirted water into it and let her to continue to lick water from it. After a few minutes she perked up, opened her eyes and seemed a lot more attentive for a bit. I also noticed her coloring darkened, (To the point if you saw before and after picture you might not believe its the same beardie) What exactly does this or could this mean? (EDIT after a few minutes her color seems to have lightened up again and she became "sleepy" again)

I also noticed she really loves being in my hand. I've been told I give off a lot of body heat and when I try to put her back in her tank she will crawl back into my hand.

She still remains more reactive then before but I'm gonna try watering her more often and see if it helps her any. I'm weary to give her a bath in her current state

 

[DragonMomSandy]

When a dragon darkens like that it is generally due to stress, sometimes because of illness. In this case I would say a little of both. You can give her a nice warm bath to soak in and help hydrate her, as she seems a little dehydrated since she was licking from the spoon. For now, shut off the coil bulb, and get the flood bulb today if you can. I would also pic up the sterile saline drops to sooth her eyes. You can put a couple drops into each eye, 2 to 3 times a day to soothe them until her eyes start to heal once a new bulb is in.

Her grabbing onto you is a good sign. She is forming a bond with you and you have become something she sees as safe. She obviously senses your care for her.

Let us know how it goes today!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It sounds like your baby is already attached to you also! I think that you have a good handle on everything now, & making the changes that you are going to be making should greatly improve her.
I would try to get oral fluids into her at least 2-3 times per day. Being exposed to lights with the low wavelength, causes severe dehydration for them so rehydration is a great concern right now.
Please keep us posted on Vitti! You are doing a phenomenal job, & we are all here for you with anything that you need.


Tracie

 

[Ostrommaysi]

Thanks for the kind words they do a lot to relieve my own stress. When I first noticed the problems I was so stressed I was nearly in tears trying to cope with her condition. Now that I know a lot more I'm more confident she can pull through. I have ordered her some live crickets 1/4 size. Right now I'm holding her a lot because I figure my hand is a lot more warm then her tank.

I will be going to the store shortly to get a house bulb, a small bin so I can bathe her and a temp meter for her tank so I can more accurately see how warm it is in there.

Question on the Sterile Saline drops, where can I get them? Do they have to be sterile? Also with her eyes closed a majority of the time how can I apply them to her? I'd be a bit uncomfortable trying to open her little eyes.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

You can get the saline solution at any drug store. Basically, just eye drops, without anything in them. You should be able to find a saline solution pretty easily.
Good luck finding the temp gun or digital probe at the store. Walmart has a digital probe for around $12 & it is the Acurite brand.
Great that you ordered some small crickets now. I think that she will be fine here real soon so you can start to relax some now!
Her eyes just need to heal.
Let us know what the temperatures are when you are able to measure them more accurately.

Tracie

 

[sara24354]

It is great to hear that Vitti is coming around some!! If you want to give her a bath,sit with her so that you can keep an eye on her as she is weak right now. Make the water baby warm(as for a human baby) and let her soak,if you feel more comfortable,just rest your hand in the water and let her sit on your hand and hold her head out of the water but keep her vent covered with water. The holding on to you,it's her way of saying,mmmm you're nice and warm and to me you represent safety,hold me a little longer please. In other words,she trusts you and knows you are trying to help her(at least that's how I see it).Breathe and relax,you are well on the way to getting her better.Any more questions,or concerns just post them.