why not beardies? Other hobbies/pets do it....

[MrsHutch]

People really kill pets that weren't born the right color?

Unfortunately yes they do, for exampe it was considered that white boxer puppies were "freak" and unwanted by breeders are in many cases put down at birth - the excuses given included that often white puppies are deaf! I don't know if this still happens but I think it's disgusting.
We had the same with a white cat, Chloe - she was deaf and was gonna be put down by the breeder so we took her and gave her a home. The breeder said we were daft as she would get killed and it was better to do it humanely now - though I'm not sure if their idea of humane didn't involve a sack and a bucket of water :shock: Chloe incidentally went on to live to be 12 years old and eventually died of cancer!

I agree wholeheartedly that if there is the slightest chance that a creature can live a happy painfree life then it should be given the opportunity to.

I love reading the posts on here of all you guys who rescue beardies and give loving homes to the ones that other heartless people don't want cos they don't look "normal", are not the right colour or are perhaps going to mean trips to the vet. Well done to you all!!!

 

[Gail]

boy I feel heartless....

I used to breed fish and its a common practice. Even if a fish isn't the color morph you were looking for... It could become fish food or the humane way to end fish suffering was the freezer

I personally don't feel you are heartless and myself believe in culling. While its true that there are a large number of members on here who are happy to own a deformed/handicap dragon the sad truth is that most people don't want to. There are already thousands of dragons hatched every year and not enough homes for them all, why add to that with birth defects?

Do you guys really think the big respected breeds out there don't cull? Almost every snake breeder has to cull due to kinks, so do dart frog breeders when the froglings have spindly leg. Yes, even dog breeders still cull. White boxers have more problems then just being deaf and can you imagine what kind of deformities puppy millers have? It might seem cruel to you but how many dogs have been abused/beaten for not learning or listening when their stupid owners don't realize they are deaf?
We had a cruelty case here a few year ago, a white boxer was beaten and chained for being "dumb" and never doing what it was told. The poor thing was deaf, the owners didn't know and the breeder never told them about the possibility.

I also don't understand how people can compare culling animals to culling children, thats just absurd.

 

[fresnowitte]

I guess I'm just different I personally owned a deaf white boxer probably the best dog I ever had....I'm sorry but that's like saying if one of your children were born deformed, deaf, blind, or any type of handicap you'd put them down? See to me children and animals are the same in innocents and didn't ask to be here we put them here. Now if you're, the responsible party for bringing such a thing into the world...because they didn't ask to be then you should also realize at times this may happen...if so it's your responsibility to do what your heart feels best for the innocent one(everyone's different and have different feelings and emotions). You know just because something is different though doesn't mean it's not healthy or doesn't deserve the chance to live and be loved. Now I personally wouldn't sell such an animal I'd take responsibly for my actions and decision to breed. Meaning I'd house and care for that animal it's entire life...Like Bender or Zak-n-Wheezie!

But see I also believe in Love and Miracles.
I totally LOVE and find it very REWARDING helping a critter defeat the odds successfully! :love5:

 

[spyder79]

Humane Uthanasia should only be considered when it is obvious that the animal in question has no way of having a long cofortable life. This will and does significantly depend on the type of home you can find for it. And in my honest opinion if people didnt push their female dragons to lay clutch on top of clutch and only hatched the first clutch and maybe the second and ended there you would have far less animals with "birth defects". I have personally noticed that the first clutch is normally healthiest with the fastest growing and largest animals then the second is close behind. Once you get to the 3rd 4th 5th or however far you push it the genes get quite thin and abnormalities start showing up such as missing limbs, missing bones, partially formed body parts, eyes missing, and so on and so forth. Also, another problem is that many breeders out there breed a pair of dragons come out with numbers of genetic problems and still breed that pair again and again because they have no care for the future of bearded dragons here in the US. YOu all have to realize that we are slowly killing these animals ourselves through shotty breeding practices. Many big breeders keep animals that are deformed for themselves, you never see pictures of them, and they never offer them for sale, but they use them to breed their "wholesale" dragons. Sorry i kind of went off on a tangent with this. Do i believe in culling, yes and no. If it is a problem the dragon will be in pain from for the rest of its life yes i do belive it should be put down, but if it is something , that with the right care, the animal can live a full comfortable life than no you should not end its life.

 

[fresnowitte]

Amen! :mrgreen:
Excellent post Brian! :headbang:

 

[MrsHutch]

I totally agree spyder79...well said! And Barbara - I guess I'm just different too.

We had a cruelty case here a few year ago, a white boxer was beaten and chained for being "dumb" and never doing what it was told. The poor thing was deaf, the owners didn't know and the breeder never told them about the possibility.

Yes, the breeder was wrong for not informing them. Unfortunatley far too many breeders are only in it for the money, and not for love or for the animals' welfare. This seems to apply to breeders of all animals sadly.
But in my opinion, an owner of any animal that chains and beats their "pet" then blames it on the fact that they didn't know it was deaf ( or any other reason for that matter) should be prosecuted and banned from owning any animal for life. There are far too many cases of animal cruelty involving animals without any defects or disbailities to be able to use this as an acceptable excuse for culling!!

 

[fresnowitte]

Very well said Sarah! :wink:

 

[Gail]

I agree with you all to a point. I don't think every animal with a deformity should be culled but there are some I've seen that makes me wonder what the breeder was thinking by keeping the animal alive (no, I don't mean zak and weezy).

I too have owned a deaf dog, didn't know he was deaf when I bought him but I could tell right away something wasn't right. He learned hand signals well and was a very good dog. I currently have a double dapple dachshund with multiple problems due to bad breeding, I don't think he should have been culled but his parents shouldn't have been bred together again, unfortunately he came from a puppy mill and I know his bloodline is still being bred.

As far as the case of the white box that was beaten, yes the owners were prosecuted for animal cruelty but do you really think they learned anything?

I really wish breeders were regulated, there is irresponsible breeding going on with all species and its terribly sad.

 

[crazyseany]

well I could say no animals with defects should be bred.... And I have no idea how its done with beardies.... (I'm much more read up on fish breeding)

take Guppies for instance... A guppy is a little silver fish with a splash of color.... Someone bred them and noticed a little more red one a baby... They rebred it with the parents... Then rebred the baby back to the grandparent... Each time selecting the redest ones... Through generations we now have red guppies that breed true (all red).... Same thing with the large fins etc.... But through all the inbreeding it weekens their immune systems....

how did/do all the color morphs come about in dragons? Or the leather/silkbacks? Most likely the same way?

if people are not culling and selling all these "genetic issues" are they being irresponsible by polluting the hene pool (possibly).... Get a couple of missing legs beardies and in 15 years is it possible to create a "legless beardie".... They're so cute watching them wiggle for crickets! Of cours I have to "stun" the crickets so they can't get away! My little legless beardies can only wiggle so fast! But its ok cause I love them and hand feed them!


stay tuned for my first 30 clutches of legless wonders! They will be called "New Wannabees!" cause they wanna bee a dragon and a snake! Only $2200 each! I will be RICH (insert Dr. Evil laugh here)

so I guess I'll get in line for the abnormal ones... Ok maybe not. One little guy is enough.

sean

 

[DragonsInKansas]

real classy there :?

 

[fresnowitte]

Sean just because I don't think that a beardie should be put down unless it's suffering and will live a life of suffering if it lives...doesn't mean I believe you can breed it. But just because something is not breeding stock doesn't mean it can't be a great pet.

Not everyone is meant to care for special needs beardies but some of us do find it to be rewarding sense no one else would give them the time of day or chance or care and love they need.

I'm really glad that my friend Jason owner of LG is not here to hear your comment about the legless beardies. :x He owns a very much loved and healthy legless beardie. This beardie was not hatched this way but rather was a victim to a pet store malling. Nevertheless I think he'd take offense and what you said was a little on the mean side. No body is trying to change the way you believe or practice your beliefs you asked the question we answered. :wink:

 

[MrsHutch]

Hear hear. Well said Barbara.

[Nevertheless I think he'd take offense and what you said was a little on the mean side./quote]

I think quite a few people might take offense at that posting.

 

[crazyseany]

not classy just stating the absurdity ( and exclamting my poor grammar)....

I agree with a previous post that animals and children are not comparable. I also believe its the right of the breeder to do what they believe is right. I'm not saying they are right or wrong. Its their choice to decide and my choice to decide on my end. I see there are plenty of people that take the "special" ones in... And bravo to them for doing such!

no need for insults... Just a discussion on the topic... Everyone has an opinion and trust me half the time mine stink (if you know the ole saying...)

I also believe that the people that adobt these guys (especially on here or any other informative site) would never have any intention on breeding them... And would hope that a responsible breeder would either cull or find a good home and not add it to their wholesale breeding stock.... There's plenty of beardies can be had for cheap....


sean

 

[fresnowitte]

Sean I'm by no means trying to insult anyone...sorry if you ment that for me and you took it that way.

Like I said earlier everyone has to do with those babies what their hearts say to do. If there heart is okay with killing innocent animal then be it that's them not me.

But on a serious note you ask on a site where there's nothing but beardie lovers this question did you not expect to get the responses that you got? :lol:

An I do agree that they shouldn't be sold as an okay beardie. Because then the vicious cycle continues. :wink:

 

[crazyseany]

Barbara,

if my dog got hit by a car and lost a leg I would do everything in my power to make it live a long happy life... The conversation wasn't on accidents (or breeding abnormalties as to where I went)... But as soon as a beardie hatches & a "issue" is there....

(and no I don't believe in abortion)

getting upset or taking offense at my post is crazy... Its a hypothetical.... Like if I said we should get rid of the moon & you get mad cause you like the tides...

well anyway is was a question I had and finnaly a discussion that couldn't be answered with the beautiful dragons good foods list link (which I use all the time)


sean