What's the deal with laying a dragon on its back?

[Tonja]

Thank you Tracie, I didn't think I was to far off the mark in my explanation. I appreciate you chiming in on this.

 

[Jcdaniels2]

Also its bad for their spine, pressure on their spine can make them partially paralyzed and when you put them on their back all their weight goes straight onto their spine, so its just a good Idea not to do so

 

[Taterbug]

Thanks for the input Tracie, I understand not to do it I just still don't understand the physiology of what happens.

How often/likely is it to happen?

Does "lung collapse" mean actual damage? Like injury or the surfaces sticking together? Or just squishing and impaired function. When the lizard is righted again what is the long term effect?

As far as catatonic state, is it actually oxygen deprivation or is a stress response? Reptiles seem to have a much more voluntary metabolism/respiration than mammals and even stress specific quirks like vasovagal response and "playing dead". While probably very unpleasant, a few breaths per minute doesn't actually sounds that dangerous.

What is "too long?" Is it short like five minutes or more like 30min to an hour or more? If it is longer than a few minutes I don't understand how it' is considered easily life threatening.

Sorry for my stubborn questions. I'm starting to wonder what the point of going to the vet is, and I can't feel like I trust them anymore. So I'm learning as much as I can.

 

[Tonja]

A primary pneumothorax is one that occurs without an apparent cause and in the absence of significant lung disease, while a secondary pneumothorax occurs in the presence of existing lung pathology. In a minority of cases, the amount of air in the chest increases markedly when a one-way valve is formed by an area of damaged tissue, leading to a tension pneumothorax. This condition is a medical emergency that can cause steadily worsening oxygen shortage and low blood pressure. Unless reversed by effective treatment, these sequelae can progress and cause death.
Although this is a human, you can see a left sided collapsed lung and how it is atrophied <shrunken> these can be caused without apparent damage or disease in the lung.

Here is a collapsed lung in a right side lung, the arrow indicates the lung and you can see how much smaller it is compared to the left lung.

Oxygen deprivation can lead to all kinds of problems from stroke to death. As oxygen is deprived, carbon dioxide builds up in the blood and there is little to no exchange of oxygen at the celluar levels. The body cannot dispense of the carbon dioxide properly and ataxia can set in causing neurological problems. Oxygen deprivation can be from as little as 4 minutes before the body starts shutting down and once that happens without immediate intervention you can have clinical death. If oxygen is not restored within 10 minutes you can have biological death. The time frame varies but is never more, in rare cases of 45 minutes with intervention. The heart, brain and kidneys need a constant supply of oxygen in order for them to function, when deprived they start shutting down quickly.
In the case of a beardie, laying him on his back causes the body to flatten and gravity takes over. This flattening regardless of connective tissue, causes the organs to spread out, and there isn't much room with all the organs in a small compact body. Lungs and the heart are contained within the chest or thoraxic cavity held within the ribs. Visceral organs are also contained within the lower ribs to include the stomach, liver, pancreas, kidneys. Intestines and other organs are contained within the abdominal cavity. As these organs are flattened out they spread out putting pressure on the lungs and heart. This increases the pressure in the chest cavity. With the spreading of the organs within the ribs this impedes the ribs from functioning in aiding the inhalation and exhalation of air. The resulting increase of pressure in the chest cavity causes the lung to force the air out of itself and in turn collapses. The lung itself is a spongy tissue full of air sacs <aveoli> bronchi that are branched off the bronchial tubes. Immediate intervention is needed to release the pressure within the chest cavity for the lung to re-inflate. Oxygen deprivation can also lead to hypoxia or cerebral hypoxia. Hypoxia occurs when organs and tissues are deprived of oxygen and they start to shut down. The brain needs a constant supply of oxygen and if deprived goes into cerebral hypoxia where the brain starts dying. Brain cells are extremely sensitive to a lack of oxygen. Some brain cells start dying less than 5 minutes after their oxygen supply disappears. As a result, brain hypoxia can rapidly cause severe brain damage or death.

 

[Taterbug]

The question is not about if oxygen deprivation is a problem, or that a sudden or traumatic injury would have the results you describe. It's more about how likely it is.

I suppose that yes, in the case that the organs displace the lungs enough to force out all the air and the animal cannot rely on holding its breath and regulating its oxygen use it would die quite quickly. That sounds like it would need to be either a very rough/jarring handling situation or a very weak animal.

Again, how likely is this? Saying it's the easiest way to hurt a dragon implies it's known to be more likely than unlikely.

 

[Tonja]

I do not have statistics on how likely or how often this happens. I know it can happen.

 

[Jcdaniels2]

I think I have read the answer to this question about ten times already XD, Bearded dragons don't lay on their backs in the wild so it would be common knowledge that they would not have developed the proper "equipment" to handle such things as breathing on their backs because they don't do it in the wild and that's another reason why they don't feel heat on their bellies because their backs is always towards the sun where they get the most heat and another reason they don't ever go on their backs in the wild is because they are easy prey. I don't know the mechanics of how they breathe but I'm sure it would be fine for them to be on their backs a couple "Seconds" and that's all, I wouldn't even risk that though.
Always learning more about my beardie :study:

Google is your best friend

 

[Taterbug]

You are right, there is no natural incentive for them to go on their back, but it's a little strange to think it would easily kill them. Animals tend to be a bit more robust than that and particularly their basic life support systems.

It doesn't make sense that lizards have no way to sense heat from below. I'm open to evidence to the contrary, but the same sort of thought experiment (what is the natural adaptation) implies they should be able too in some form, at least enough to move off an appliance that is burning them.

The sun heated rocks they are laying on in the wild could likely be far hotter than the radiant heat on their back. Paved roads can get hot enough to cook an egg, for example. Basking animals would need to be able to sense if they are going to cook themselves with what they are laying on. The problem with hot rocks, where this usually comes up, is that the heat source doesn't raise the ambient temperature, so the animal has no way to reach an equilibrium which is the real goal behind thermoregulation. It lays on the rock and it just looses all the heat it gains. They need heat for almost all their bodily functions, so getting off the rock that is slowly cooking them isn't really an option if there is no other adequate source of heat. They are less adapted to belly heat because they are primarily baskers, but they are still exposed to incredibly hot surfaces in the wild.

 

[Jcdaniels2]

I don't think it would easily kill them because they are not going to just sit there willingly on there backs lol

Let me rephrase about the heat thing , They can feel heat on their bellies but not enough to tell if something is "HOT" because they do not have that many nerves on their bellies for heat but im sure they do have them for pain(I am not entirely sure) but by the time they feel the pain its too late because they have been burned, and in the wild if you look at a bearded dragons belly I can almost be sure that its not white like ours is, im sure when they are in the wild they burn themselves many times.

 

[Gepard]

I don't think how often it happens is important, the fact is that it can happen. All you need is one time where things don't go as usual and you have an issue that can go quickly from bad to worse. I could put my beardie on his back 20 times and nothing bad will happen but the 21st maybe something he ate sits weird and so the organs shift and suddenly things go wrong. I don't think you're going to be able to find statistics because people don't normally count how many times they lay their reptiles on their backs or for how long and it's certainly not something that needs to be tested when you're putting an animal in possible danger.

As for it being the easiest way to hurt a dragon I think it would be because it seems so innocuous an action that people don't think about it as dangerous. I put my dogs and cats on their backs all the time and never think twice about it, most people not familiar with beardies would likely have the same experience.

(The statistics thing bugs me a little because it doesn't matter how often it happens just that it does. I have epilepsy and the statistics of me having a siezure while driving a car are very small but it happened to me and I had to be airlifted to a hospital. It's been almost 5 years and I'm still not back to driving. Just the possibility that it could happen once is all you need to know)

 

[Taterbug]

I'm not sure if I've been unclear, so let me be explicit. I'm not looking for a reason to put a dragon on its back, nor will I ever encourage someone to do so. I am looking to understand if this is a universal and documented occurrence, if it is related to other health issues or a species specific physiology, or if it is a random tragedy.

I'm not looking at from a standpoint that it's not possible or should be ok because injury so unlikely. I'm not looking for a reason to do it. I whole heartedly agree, it doesn't matter how often it happens to justify the risk if it is known there is any chance of injury or trauma.

I am questioning why have none of the exotic vets I've asked expressed concern and why is it so hard to find documentation. Maybe I need to find new vets, and new books, hence my questions. I'm not asking for statistics, rather documentation outside of a reptile forum would be satisfactory; such as a case report, veterinary text or other professional literature that explicitly outlines the risk. Normal people don't do experiments in their pets and shouldn't. However, there is a growing body if research into the details of reptile physiology from which this seems curiously absent escape illy considering dragons are such a common and popular pet.

 

[Amazonia]

My beardie had his femoral pores unblocked at the vets today. I mentioned that I didn't want him going on his back, so the vet got me to hold the dragon against me while he squeezed the blockages out. That worked nicely and Nioka was no trouble.

 

[Tonja]

I honestly think its a dead subject....dragons cannot breathe on their backs..and should not be on their backs. And as for feeling heat, I am not going to do the research for you, its readily available. Beardies lack heat sensory nerves in their tummies therefore do not feel heat. Since they are basking animals the heat sensory nerves are in the top of the beardie. I am tired of being made to feel like I don't know anything. From the way some of this reads, someone is going to take it to heart and put heat rocks and pads under their beardies then wonder why they are burned. I am done with this conversation. Do your own research, its out there.

Bearded dragons are native to the deserts and semi-arid habitats of central Australia. They thermoregulate by moving into the sun when they need to warm up and moving into the shade when they need to cool off. While they may sit atop a warm rock while basking, any heat gained is incidental -- they have evolved to derive their heat from the sun. When trying to maximize their rate of heating, bearded dragons flatten their bodies in the direction of the sun to collect as much sunlight as possible. Cold bearded dragons are often very dark, which is an adaptation that helps them quickly warm in the sun's rays.Bearded dragons -- and many other diurnal lizards -- possess a well-developed parietal eye. The parietal eye is not an eye in the traditional sense, and does not see images as typical eyes do. While scientists debate the exact functions of the organ, it is clear that the organ plays a role in detecting sunlight. Additionally, some lizards appear to use their parietal eyes to perceive incredibly subtle shadows, which likely help them to avoid capture by predators such as hawks. It is likely that the lizards use these sunlight-detecting organs to assist in thermoregulation; providing them with belly heat may impair their ability to properly heat and cool themselves.

I use these people quite often for the care of my beardies, and they recommended my vet to me. I trust them with no doubts whatsoever.
http://www.esf.edu/efb/turner/publication%20pdfs/Pineal%20body%20%26%20thermoregulation.pdf
oh yes they feel heat enough that this happens with heat rocks and heat pads..this poor animal is burned cause they DO NOT have heat sensing nerves in there bellies. Most of the heat they get is through their head actually and the parietal eye. The parietal eye is more complex than just sensing changes in light and shadow or a predator from above.

 

[Taterbug]

I missed the last post in this thread.... I am doing my research, part of that is asking the folks here with much more first hand experience than I have, because this site is considered friendly and respected.

My research on both of these topics has given me answers that are contradictory to what a handful of folks say so I am fact checking. I make no ill assumptions of you or your level of knowledge, and in general give folks the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tonja]

I just pray no one listens to you and your posts about this...its going to hurt someones dragon should they take it to heart. I am done with this conversation. I have facts to back up what I say along with many others on here and experts that have written papers on these two topics. I have provided explanation after explanation, picture after picture. I am done.