What's the deal with laying a dragon on its back?

[Taterbug]

So that I don't hijack another unrelated thread, I'll make my own about this. I'm probably too technical for my own good but this really has me scratching my head. Tonja, I did read your reply I just still have questions, the explanation doesn't quite add up to me.

Regarding not putting dragons on their back, what is the reason and circumstances that it is considered dangerous? I've read anything from simply can't breath, get fluid in the lungs, lungs collapse and organs crush the lungs....

Is it actually a risk of damage or is it more that the muscles involved don't function as effectively and it's short term stress/discomfort?

I'm not a biologist/vet so my understanding of the anatomy is limited, but I'm learning quite a lot, it's fascinating. The vets I have talked to haven't thought it was a problem/risk other than unnecessarily imposing a highly stressful condition.

 

[Esther19]

It is highly stressful for them. Dragons do not have a diaphragm (the muscle human bodies use to cause inflation of the lungs.) They cannot breathe on their backs. If left on their backs, their lungs can collapse and can cause death.

 

[Tonja]

Dragons do not have a moveable diaphragm like most animals do and humans. In between the ribs there are spaces called the intercostal spaces that contain muscles called intercostal muscles. The dragon uses these muscles to breathe. When on their backs, the internal organs relax and obstruct these muscles from contracting to pull in air to the lungs. When that happens the pressure inside the body is greater than the pressure in the lungs. This pressure imbalance like in all species with either a moveable diaphragm or muscles in rib spaces or behind the front legs, can cause the lungs to collapse. In humans this is called a spontaneous pneumothorax, not sure if its the same for animals or not but most likely it is. All that means is that pressure in the chest cavity is greater than that in the lungs and the lungs collapse as a result. Once the lungs collapse there is immediate need to get the lung pressure up and the chest cavity pressure down usually by way of a chest tube in humans, not sure about beardies, to release the pressure or air or blood in the chest cavity. Without the relief, the lungs cannot inflate properly and the oxygen levels drop dramatically and the animal dies. I hope this helps.

 

[Taterbug]

I'm trying to be difficult, I'm just not satisfied with the general explanation. This one has been one of the better ones and I appreciate your taking the time to write it out. I've read numerous texts, talked to vets etc and haven't found a source that discusses the breathing trouble, only the anatomical structure. So I feel like there is something I am missing or just don't "get."

Simply lacking a diaphragm doesn't make sense since it's typically a mammalian trait. Not having an explicit diaphragm like mammals it not an uncommon setup, as far as I know. Most reptiles don't have one. The bellows action of expanding the thoracic cavity is the important function regardless of method.

How do the organs "relax"? I can understand the impact of gravity being slightly different and maybe the guts can shift around but aren't the organs are held in place by connective tissue not muscles? Under that theory they should never be in a be in a neat vertical head down position since most of the viscera is in the belly area. That aside, the intercostal muscles are anchored to the ribs and the contracting action moves the ribs out and forward to physically expand the volume of the thoracic cavity creating a lower pressure. I can see that the organs could have some effect on how much the lungs can expand, but how can the organs be obstructing the action of the ribs/sides?

Pneumothorax to my understanding is when air somehow (typical injury) escapes the lungs into the abdominal cavity, which is not the same as the lungs being displaced by internal organs or squished by gravity. In such cases yes, I totally see the problem. The connection I'm not making I guess is that it doesn't sound like its a common thing.

Simply impairing function (not completely impeding it) wouldn't seem to be a immediately life threatening problem since reptiles breath much less and need much less oxygen that mammals anyway.

 

[Tonja]

I cant explain it any better but, I did notice before I learned to not do it, when I placed geico on his back to clean some poo off his vent, that he struggled to upright himself. His tummy flattened out dramtically and his sides did not puff out as they should have. The weight of his tummy and structures inside inhibited the process of the intercostal muscles from working to draw air in and release it. Yes normally a pneumothorax is air trapped inside the chest cavity, or blood <hemopnuemothorax> trapped in the chest cavity. I was merely using that as an example as it happens in humans. If the pressure inside the chest cavity is less than the lungs then there is no problem. If the pressure in the chest cavity is greater than that of the lungs then there is a problem. Having the beardie on its back, will cause relaxation of the tummy and it flattens, therefore the structures will also flatten against the spine and ribs creating more pressure in those areas. The lungs cannot expand nor can the intercostal muscles to make them expand. Its the best I can explain it...maybe drache613 can offer you a better explanation. Spontaneous Pnuemothorax in humans can result without injury and why its called spontaneous.

 

[Tonja]

Yes organs are held in place by connective tissue but also remember connective tissue is very elastic, it has to be in order for you to move around, bend, and do motions. Its akin to a heavy person sleeping on their back, the fat and organs are pushed downward and it can impede breathing by sheer weight. Take the horse for example, they may lay down but not for extended periods of time as the sheer weight of their bodies can impede lung function. Same with the beardie on its back, the tummy flattens out and the organs are pushed against the spine and ribs along with fat this can impede their breathing and can cause it to stop all together. The weight causes an added pressure to the chest cavity and can cause the lungs to collapse as no air can get in.

 

[Taterbug]

Thanks for the effort I appreciate it. There are very few good reasons to turn them over anyway, I'm really just interesting in the science of it. I've got next to no background in formal biology so I stumble around a lot.

I thought dragons lungs are in the chest, not along the spine/above the viscera? I can't find a good diagram, so I'm basing that on autopsy images/diagrams. In not disputing the displacement, but dragons are very small and the mass of the organs seems like it would not quite be enough to crush each other other around in the way it happens with large animals. Under that reasoning dragons shouldn't perch head down near vertical.

It's a pretty unnatural and vulnerable position, which is what I was told the stress/struggle comes from. The belly is relatively unprotected and is generally never exposed to another animal.

 

[Tonja]

I sent my explanation to Drach613 and asked her to chime in on it. I was a paramedic for 25 yrs and base my knowledge on that and the reptile medical books I have. I could be totally off center on this and don't deny that but I really don't think so. I do agree it causes great stress to the animal to be on their backs and they do struggle to upright themselves.

 

[Taterbug]

That was kind of you! Paramedic is a way better starting point in this discussion than engineer. It seems like its just left me with a curse for asking questions.

I love that book you mentioned, by the way. I've actually considered buying it and a couple related ones. They are just so expensive. Thank goodness for google-books though.

 

[Tonja]

We will all see when and if she chimes in on this discussion. I do not claim to know it all and am always seeking answers which is why I bought the kindle version of the books. I love the reptile surgical and medical book. Its very detailed and goes into so much when it comes to health and procedures done and why. I have learned a lot from it. Never stop asking questions, its how we learn. I am still learning! There is a vast difference in humans, mammals, amphibians and reptiles I do agree. Wound care and some emergencies in animals can be very similar to that of humans and others very different. I just go on my basic knowledge and experiences with humans and apply it I hope with some common sense in animals.

 

[Amazonia]

My vet put Nioka on his back last time whilst examining him and I remembered reading that it's bad for them but didn't say anything due to him being, well, a vet! And one who is very respected and experienced with reptiles. But I'm taking him in again on Friday to see about his femoral pores and I'm wondering how safe it will be to turn him upside down if he has to empty them, as they're apparently blocked.

 

[Tonja]

Personally I would never put my dragons on their backs or allow anyone else to do so. In surgery they put them on their back but they are also usually intubated for surgery so no fear of collapsed lungs in that situation. My vet cleaned Geicos pores while her assistant held him head up in a vertical position. She restrained him but holding him around the chest and pinning his back legs so he couldn't kick away

 

[Amazonia]

That sounds like a good idea, I'll see if the vet can do this. I think it's a different guy we're seeing this time.

 

[Tonja]

Taterbug just to show you the lungs in an x-ray where you can see the bronchi filled with air and how they lie in close proximity to the ribs and spine..and a surgical picture of a beardie with inflated lungs

FROM THE SITE: Since we are an exotics practice, we thought it might be fun to show you the air filled lungs of a bearded dragon. The heart is the purplish and round structure to the upper left of the picture. The lung is the air filled and mesh appearing structure in the middle of the picture.
http://www.lbah.com/word/asthma/




you can see how cram packed everything is also in the color photo....I don't mean to gross anyone out...just trying to help someone understand what I am saying.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Tonja has the perfect description & is exactly correct. Thank you for the great detail.
Placing on the backs can cause distress & can cause lung collapse. It can also cause stress & them to struggle to right themselves & strain their back.
If they are left on their backs for too long, their systems can go into a catatonic state & their respiration can slow down to just a few breaths per minute to protect themselves. It is similar to a comatose type of state due to reduced oxygenation.

I concur, a dragon shouldn't be turned onto its back at all. A vet really should know that though.

Tracie