Very worried about my little guy

[devotchka]

Hi there,
I've had a bit of a search and can't find anything specific to my problem, so thought I'd make a new post.

My Beardie, Zilla is 9 months old. In very good health, usually very active and alert, voracious eater, and pleasant when being handled. His viv is 4ft, has a gradient of 105f - 80f. He has a calci sand substrate (was kept on newspaper for the first 7 months of his life). Fed on black crickets, fed fresh greens daily (savoy cabbage, carrots, peas etc). I spot clean daily and deep clean 1/2 a month with reptile disinfectant, sieve his sand too. He has a UVB lamp which is on for roughly 10-12hrs a day, and a spot lamp that's on constantly. As well as a heat mat that is on the back wall of the viv. He also has access to a bath and a water bowl all the time, plus I mist him once or twice a day.

Recently though, I am having an awful lot of problems with him. It started when I found out I was overfeeding him by double the crickets he is meant to have. I was told 8-10 crickets a day when I bought him, but in a conversation with a guy at the pet shop about a month ago, I learnt he was only meant to have 4-5, plus all the greens I provide for him. So, I reduced his crickets, and he got a lot more aggressive. He would go for my hands whenever they were in the viv, or even near the glass, trying to eat them. This was a bit annoying, but it didn't bother me all that much. I just made sure he had plenty of greens and figured he'd eat them if he was hungry.

I moved house last Sunday, and so I had to move him and his viv (4ft). When we were moving, I tried to keep all stress to a minimum. However, he seems to have been extremely stressed out by it. First, we had him on the floor on one side of the room while we got him a stand, and now he's on a desk on the other side of the same room, facing away from where all the action the action takes place. We didn't want to exacerbate the problem by walking past all the time and stressing him out further.

Since moving, he has been very, very aggressive. displaying his beard, which is now black, opening his mouth, flattening out and doing a bit of a dance where his head and body bob about slowly.
He tends to display all this whenever I go near him, or the viv. Usually at night, he'll calm down and be his usual self when he's in there, only getting aggressive when I go near him (he's fine when I'm near the glass) again.
It's also probably worth noting that he's been shedding this week too.

I phoned the pet shop up in a panic the day after we moved and after explaining the age etc of my Beardie, he said it would be stress from moving, plus he's going through an 'adolescent' stage where he will try to assert his dominance. He advised me to cover him up for a few days, which I did, and then leave him uncovered and slowly being handling him again. Which I have also tried to do once a day, his behaviour depending (sometimes I will open the glass and he'll run up and leap out onto the floor
The guy also said it might last a week and to worry if it goes on longer than that.

So, it's been just over a week now, and it doesn't seem to have got any better, in fact worse if anything.
He is still eating mostly. Being aggressive and displaying, but he will take the crickets from my tweezers (he won't chase them though). There was only one occasion yesterday where he refused to eat and just got angry. Today he'd being aggressive and making a 'hisssss' sound when I go near him, and he keeps pulling a piece of bark over himself and sleeping.

Sorry for the length of this. Any advice whatsoever would be much appreciated, as I am very worried.
If there's any more info needed, I am happy to provide.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Gail]

I've got to ask how big Zilla is? You got very bad advice from the pet store, he is being underfed, a lot. Babies need to eat as many bugs as they want, feed twice a day. His lights need to be turned off at night, it can interrupt his sleep if you don't. Unplug the under tank heater, they are know to cause health issues with dragons and aren't needed. What brand of UVB do you have and what style is the bulb? (tube or coil)

The calci sand is dangerous, I bet the pet store guy sold that to you too huh? Take it back out. If you really want sand then you can use sifted, washed play sand but only once your dragon is over 16"

The greens you are feeding aren't the best, check this site for better http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html. Are you using calcium and vitamin powders? if so how often?

I know you asked about behavior and didn't want a lesson on care but improper care can cause behavior issues as well as health issues. If he isn't feeling well or is very hungry, he is going to be crabby.

Can he see out a window or is there any noise/vibrations in the new home that might be frightening him? Personally, I would turn him around so he can see you. If he is scared or upset by people for some reason, keeping him away from you then suddenly appearing for feeding isn't going to help him get over it. He needs to see that you are there and you aren't going away.
Its also important you try and handle him everyday, if you back off when he is being nasty then he will learn that you scare away easy. He has to relearn that you aren't going to hurt him and that you are going away either.

Try to pinpoint any outside stimulus that could be causing the problems. Is there a new pet? A window he can see out of, a big shadow from a tree, did you change your appearance drastically? Things that seem like little issues to us an be scary for a dragon. My dragon won't let me touch him if I have a towel on my head or am wearing a hat.

 

[devotchka]

Hi there,
Thanks so much for your reply.

Where we used to have him (before we moved house), was in my bedroom, which I was in a lot. So he saw people moving around an awful lot too, and wasn't ever scared by movement or noise, as he was next to the tv. We also have a cat, who has always been curious about him, but they don't give each other any bother. So I don't think it's either of those things.

Wow, I thought the pet shop was really reliable :/. I was told to keep him on calci sand as he's a baby, and switch to play sand when he reaches maturity. He is roughly 12.5 inches long. He sheds often and like I said, before the move, seemed very happy. God, under feeding him? I'm sorry to be annoying, but how many would you recommend? I can happily give him 8 and he seems relatively okay on that many. I have been told that they will pretty much just keep eating?

I am using a calci powder to dip the crickets in 2-3 times a week. Again, recommended by the pet shop.
And again, they specifically told me to keep the heat lamp on at night, and turn off the UVB. The temp drops to around 80f in the hot spot and 60ish f in the cooler area. I know it's a Reptiglow tube light, but unsure of any other details.

Thanks for the link, I'll have a look. Today I have him savoy, mange tout, carrot and apple, and he's had a bit.

Again, thanks so much for the info. I appreciate that you too the time to write a reply.

 

[devotchka]

Just realized I didn't reply to everything.

I haven't recently changed anything about my appearance. I have also just turned him around so he can see into the living room, as opposed to just the wall.

Oh, and the heat mat was used on the back wall of the viv, as opposed to the floor. In my previous flat, it was very cold so the general temps of his viv were quite low. So I used this to get the temp up to a decent gradient, which has stayed quite constant.

Thanks again.

 

[Gail]

One thing most people learn after coming on here is that the majority of pet stores have no idea what they are talking about. They give outdated info or advice that will mean more sales for them. Please come here and ask for advice for now on or at least double check your info.

Calci sand is terrible for dragons, especially small ones. When it gets wet it forms a hard lump, it not digestible at all, regardless of what the bag says. There is a gruesome pictorial of a necropsy on a dragon that died from a impaction, I can try and find it if you want.

You guy is pretty tiny for his age, he should be near his adult size at 9 months. My dragon is almost that size and he isn't even three months yet. My guy will happily eat 40+ bugs a day, I don't feed crickets but the dubia he eats are medium cricket size. You fellow could probably eat 20-30 appropriate sized crickets a day plus his greens. Many people order crickets in bulk online, its so much cheaper then buying from a pet store.

The heat mat sounds ok since he can't lay directly on it. Dragons can take night temps down to 60-65 at night, if its above that then don't worry about night heat. If it get colder then you can provide heat without bright light. I use a ceramic heat emitter, it makes heat but no light.

He should be getting calcium 5 times a week and vitamin powder 2 times a week. Your reptiglo isn't a great bulb, when its due to be changed try a reptiSUN 10.0, they can be hard to find at stores and most of us order them from petmountain.com. Make sure you guy can get 6-8 inches away from the UVB so he gets maximum benefits.

His attitude could also be the equivalent to puberty, they can get really snotty and need constant handling. It usually happen around 5-7 months but your guy could be a late bloomer.

Welcome to the site and we would love to see pics!

 

[devotchka]

Yes, I have always heard conflicting things, but I think I'll take your advice and come on here. There seems to be an absolutely massive wealth of information.

Yes, he is small. He has always been. It was something I was very concerned about, as when I visited the shop for crickets, all of his brothers and sisters from the same clutch were on display and they were much bigger than he was. I asked the guy there, and he sort of said, in an offhand way "He musn't have got to the food as much". And I was thought he should have been separated in which case.

I will switch his substrate back to newspaper tomorrow. That way I can give him a nice long bath and get rid of the stuff. It's funny you said about the pet shop doing things for money. The calci sand is about fifteen pounds for the smallest bag. I'm appalled. I'l keep him on newspaper until I can get hold of some shelf liner or tiles.

I was worried about him getting burned on the mat, that's why I put it on the back. Although sometimes he will make a point to lie against it up the wall. I'll turn everything off tonight and see how the temperature is, and I'll get a ceramic place if needed.

He seems to have been better from about 4-5pm onwards. Not displaying when I go near him. I have turned him around to face us, so hopefully that'll get him used to people walking about again.

I attempted to give him some more crickets just before (after giving him the mistaken 5 this morning), but he won't take them. Seems to be off his food a little. I suppose it's just that and his sleeping now (he very rarely sleeps or hides during the day). I'll just leave him to it and get him out tomorrow. Keep an eye on him.

Thank you! Yes, I'll post some pictures shortly
Oh, and again, thanks so much for your advice, I have a bit of peace of mind now. Phew.

 

[Gail]

Sometimes dragon "go off" a food if they are fed it often enough. Its not uncommon for them to completely stop eating crickets, can you get any soft worms like repti-worms, silkies or butters? He might eat more if he had variety.

 

[diamc]

Hi, Gail has given you great advice. It's great that you are going to be making some changes. I may have missed it but what type of thermometer are you using and what are the basking & cool side temps?
Also, if you could look on the UVB tube and give us the brand name and output % (2.0, 5.0, 8.0 or 10.0) that would be helpful. What is the distance of the UVB to him when he's in his basking spot?

 

[devotchka]

It's a 24" 20W one, that's all it seems to say.
The gardient is usually about 100-105 in the basking spot to 80-90 in the cool area.

He is eating a little, which is easing my mind a little. 4-5 crickets is about all I can manage to get down him, asd he's still quite agitated.
He is still sleeing A LOT too, in his cool area under a log. I also turned his heat lamp off last night and the temperature seemed to stay around 80-90 in the warm area and about 70 in the cool.
I am going to have a look online now to see if I can get him something a bit different to eat.

Oh and here's a few pictures of him

Sleeping.

And, lately, my little guy being angry.

 

[stanjf]

A bearded dragon should get roughly 1 cricket per inch of their body, and should only be on calcium sand as an adult. As a baby they should be kept on reptile carpet. I agree that he just needs to get used to you being around and holding him again, the same thing happened with mine.

 

[stanjf]

And if he's not eating the crickets try mealworms, wax worms or maybe even super-worms. There is also a special vegetable mix made for bearded dragons that mine cannot get enough of, and many vitamin supplements you can brush the food with to make it more appetizing. Maybe you should see if the aggressiveness is from a vitamin deficiency. In some cases, lack of certain vitamins can cause them to act strangely.

 

[diamc]

If the brand name and output % isn't stamped on the side of the bulb, it may very well NOT be a UVB bulb at all and that is concerning. Could you take another look at it for us? What is the distance that you have this bulb and how old is it?

Also, what type of thermometer are you using, digital strip, round gauge, digital with long wire & probe end or an infrared temperature gun? It sounds like he is going to the cool area under a log because he is too warm so that's why we need to know the specifics of the thermometer as there are some that give very inaccurate readings.

His colors are beautiful. He doesn't really have any fat stores on top of his head, it should actually raise up rather than sinking in and he may also be somewhat dehydrated. Since he's not really eating, it would be a good idea to try some different feeders as mentioned and/or supplement with some chicken and squash baby food which you could actually mix the calcium or vitamins in depending on which day he is due for either supplement. Before he actually gets longer, he needs to bulk up more. I would stay away from mealworms though because they really don't have any nutritional value and there are much healthier feeders available.

It also might be a good idea to have a poop sample checked for parasites.

Please keep us updated on him.

 

[alyel]

I just want to say the anger issue is probably ok LOL...my male juvie was a complete a$$hole about a month or 2 ago, he was going through puberty, majorly lol. He calmed down a bit finally. Still beards and bobs and thinks he's mister tough guy lol. Especially when he sees the ladies.

 

[devotchka]

Just had a look on the underside of the tube and it says Reptiglow 5.0. It was the one given by the pet shop. It's about 5 months old now, so it's die to be changed.
I have two Exo Terra round thermometres, one in the basking area, one in the cool spot.
He splits his time mostly between his basking spot, which is about 4-5 inches away from the UVB, and another bit of furniture that's right under the bulb, so i think he's getting enough of it.

Upon reccommendation by the pet shop, I mist him once a day roughly and make sure he has a long warm bath once a week.

In the past day or so, he has actually imporoved. He isn't puffing up when we go near the viv, he will if we put our hands in, but usually goes back to normal once he realizes he's safe. His black beard has also gone too.
He's sleeping less, and yesterday he ate about fifteen crickets, which was good. We've just moved, so money is extremely tight at the moment, but I will get him somw alternate food asap.
He's also pooping regaulrly, once a day, and it's a good mix of brown/white. I will heed your advice and get something sent off.

Oh, I've just switched him over to newspaper, so the calci sand is gone!

Awah, thanks. He is beautiful. He seems to be getting back to his regular self slowly, so I'm a happier mummy at the moment
Thanks for all your advice!

 

[diamc]

Hi, thanks for taking another look at the UVB. The Repti-Glo 5.0 really isn't strong enough for a bearded dragon. Since it's time to change it, here's a site that has the Repti-SUN 10.0 fluorescent at a very reasonable price and they are a great company to deal with. Here's the direct link to that bulb. http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/11442-504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10-0-uvb-bulb.html Since any of the UVB's can be rough on their eyes, they shouldn't be any closer than 6 to 8 inches so if you can make that slight adjustment, it would be a good idea.

Unfortunately, the round (gauge) thermometers can be as much as 20 degrees off so it's probably quite a bit higher in the actual basking spot and the temp that is the most important is the basking SURFACE temp. The only 2 ways to get accurate readings are with either an infrared temperature gun or a digital thermometer with a long wire & probe end. Walmart has the AcuRite brand digital with probe for about $12.00 and it will give you both basking & cool side temps at the same time as well as a humidity readout. If you'd like to see a picture of it, let me know. Those thermometers should be in Walmart where the outdoor plastic thermometers are sold, probably the garden center.

Misting is ok to do but it doesn't totally hydrate them. Please make sure not to mist in the tank because it can raise the humidity levels up to high which can actually cause an upper respiratory infection. I usually recommend a bath at least 3 to 4 times a wk for about 15 to 20 minutes. I use my kitchen sink and it works out very well. Of course, I make sure to properly disinfect it before and after. Putting a wash cloth or small towel in the bottom of the sink or container helps them to feel more secure and give them a better grip. If they get dehydrated, it can indeed affect their behavior and since the temps may be off, I would suggest giving him baths daily now if you have the time, it makes a huge difference when they are well hydrated and can also increase their activity level, which in turn increases their appetite. After bathing, they are very relaxed so that would be the perfect time to wrap him up in a towel or small blanket and lay him on your chest, he may go right to sleep with you rubbing his back. Keeping an eye on the urates (white part) will also tell you how hydrated he is, it should be soft, not hard like chalk OR rubbery and shouldn't have any yellow in it.

Have you tried hand feeding some greens to him while he's in his tank? Sometimes that's all it takes to help them get used to you. I have even handfed feeders and they like that but I wouldn't do it all the time or they can expect it, they're very smart. :lol:

That's great that he ate 15 crickets the other day. Increasing the calcium dusting to 5 days a wk and the vitamins to 2 days a wk should help with the appetite also. Also great that you removed all the calci-sand, good job. :wink:

It's obvious that you think a LOT of him. They are very smart and wonderful creatures, gee, think that's why I have 4 of them? :| If my house was bigger, I'm sure I'd have more. If you have any other questions or concerns, please let us know.