Tiny baby's I need advice please!!

[Cheapmiester]

Hiya guys, I'm new to here but I've read so much advice in previous posts so I'm here to ask for help.

I picked up my 2 baby's on Monday. I already have 4 and I paid the breeder in April. The baby we baught died, and we put it down to just being one of them unfortunate things. We were offered 2 baby's from the next clutch which we accepted.

We went to pick them up on Monday, as they are 10 weeks old and we were getting a little suspicious, things like the female is 7g but the male isn't up to size and the courier won't take him he's too small. Alarm bells started ringing. Especially as weve just picked up recently a 7 week old at 9g and at 12 weeks old hes now 57g from an absolutly amasing breeder!! So we drove 2 hours to go get them rather than wait another however long for an apparent courier.

Picked them up, they were cold and unbelievably small!! I'm backwards, as much as I'm annoyed by the state of them, I'm so glad they are now in my care!

Ok so, we got them home left them for that day to get warm and settle. We weighed them the following day. The female is 4g the male is 3g. We knew then they are in trouble. Their poor little bones stick out of their hips and the male looked weak as hell.

Tuesday, they ate 2 small roaches and 2 small meal worms each. They pooped. They are so weak and malnourished.

Yesterday they wouldn't pick up, were asleep most of the day, so I ran around a few reptile specialist near us to see if their was anything I could pick up to help. I've got a tiny 1ml syringe, and I have smashed up 10 roaches and mixed it with some veg/insect mix that somebody recommended to help with the appetite.

They've both eaten from syringe yesterday and today, I am seriously concerned about them.

Our reptile vet basically said they are too small, and what we are doing is all that can be recommended, so I thought id ask you guys if you have any further advice/tips for me!

We have pancur and something else on the way as 1 of my adults had pinworm so we ordered it from America for any future bugs (don't worry, we are on that, and have a tonne of hand sanitizer in the house, their cages are wiped down daily and thoroughly cleaned every week! Good job they like being pampered ??)

So my main question, whilst in syringe feeding them both, do you have any suggestions what to give them and how much!! I feel like I'm giving them too much for their size (only about 0.3ml each time, did it 3 times yesterday with 5 hours inbetween each feeding, and today the same at 9- 12- 3.30- 8. Each syringe contains 10 small dubia roaches chopped and crushed, with this veg/insect mix in it.

I'm so desperate, we have had a slow grower before but he was 7 months old when we got him so that was quite easy to manage, these guys are so unbelievably tiny and fragile I don't want to overfeed/underfeed/stress them out too much!!

Any advice would really help! We've sent off a poo sample today so should know in a few days hopefully if we've also got bugs to deal with!!

I'm heartbroken by this and I'll do anything I can for them. I'm off work atm so I'm spending most of my day scaring the poor types with my ugly mug pressed up against the glass making sure they're still breathing. I have to fight for them, please please please has anybody any experience with tiny tiny baby's that have a success story, any advice will help!!!!!

Setup is a 3 foot wide by 1.5 foot high and 1 foot wide, we have an arcadia 12% in, 100w heat bulb and a thermostat to keep temps at warm end at 40 degrees. Cool end is between 28-29 degrees, I open the glass a few times through the day to keep this level as it does tend to go a little higher sometimes (only to 30 though)

They are bot interested in feeding themselves, they have no energy at all, today they have perked up slightly but still not what you'd expect from baby's.

Thankyou in advance and please no bashing, I am doing everything I can for them that I've been advised and researched also, if you have different advice I will appreciate and accept it anything that might help!!!!

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, yes you are doing a good job with them, pretty much all you can do. I don't think they could handle any meds. right now but would just concentrate on feeding + hydraton. Drip water on their snouts for a drink or just be sure to add a bit of water to their syringe feeds. I've raised plenty of babies from the egg, even runts can do well if cared for properly but these dragons sound neglected.

Can you post pics of them in the tank as well as individual close ups ? Also of the syringe containing approximately how much you try to feed them in one sitting ? And who is this selling tiny sick babies ? Here's how to post pics :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them

 

[Cheapmiester]

Hi there, yes you are doing a good job with them, pretty much all you can do. I don't think they could handle any meds. right now but would just concentrate on feeding + hydraton. Drip water on their snouts for a drink or just be sure to add a bit of water to their syringe feeds. I've raised plenty of babies from the egg, even runts can do well if cared for properly but these dragons sound neglected.

Can you post pics of them in the tank as well as individual close ups ? Also of the syringe containing approximately how much you try to feed them in one sitting ? And who is this selling tiny sick babies ? Here's how to post pics :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them

Ok tank setup I don't have a pic of atm (phones dying!) But will send when it decides it wants to play fair!!

Here are my beautiful baby's ??

This was 5 minutes after I got them. Male zero on the left, female on the right.

This is the male the day after.

Both together on a little log I've put under the basking light. I know the background looks a mess please don't judge me haha I put quite a few bugs in their to see of they were interested and they just spent all day crawling all over, they were taken out!!

I know a lot of people say 4ft minimum but they are too small in my opinion for the space, so for the moment we've kept them together in the 3ft which is situated in our living room that was a spare to keep an eye on them. As soon as they are up to strength the 4fts are setup ready to go already and they will be transferred to them. I feed all my dragons seperatly so fighting for food isn't an issue. I have a 4ft tub full of large dubias for my adults and they come out to eat from the tub, the 12 week old is a good boy and likes to chase his small dubias around the tank for a while, as soon as these 2 start to eat on their own, they'll be fed separately from 2 separate tubs of small dubias.

Thankyou for the advice of the medication, I wasn't sure if it was worth giving them pancur as a safety measure or not but I'll leave that out. I haven't used it before my husband medicated our big boy when he had bugs before so I'm not even sure what it is until it arrives it was just something on my mind, I'll assure you it won't be used!

Admittedly I wasn't into dragons when we first got them as many people are I'm sure but they are wonderful crestures totally taken over my life now!

I haven't got a pic of the syringe, we got it from the pharmacist it's like a baby 1ml, a long thin plastic thing smaller than the 5ml ones that are usually used for children's Calpol. Our local reptile shop suggested this as he breeds his own dragons for his shop and said he'd had a few he's had to do this with. We have a reptile small syringe coming, it's at the post office I'm picking it up in the morning I'm not sure if it'll be any different or not my husband ordered it he says it's smaller at the end so it won't be as uncomfortable for them. Poor little buggers it's break my heart ??

Hope the picture load I don't know what I'm doing!!

 

[AHBD]

They do look very frail, the Witblit+ Zero morph's are the newest thing so everyone
s trying to crank them out + sell them in any condition. So you can offer them syringe feedings of about 2-3 ml's three times a day, maybe four. It's O.K to have them in a smaller, simple set up right now. I
d keep records of their progress or lack of to update the breeder. Hopefully they will survive + maybe even thrive but did the breeder give you any kind of guarantee ?

 

[Cheapmiester]

They do look very frail, the Witblit+ Zero morph's are the newest thing so everyone
s trying to crank them out + sell them in any condition. So you can offer them syringe feedings of about 2-3 ml's three times a day, maybe four. It's O.K to have them in a smaller, simple set up right now. I
d keep records of their progress or lack of to update the breeder. Hopefully they will survive + maybe even thrive but did the breeder give you any kind of guarantee ?

Don't I know it!! Breeder messaged me after we left saying let me know if the male makes it if he doesn't she would replace him. Not really the point though is it. I've just had him out now thought he'd died a moment ago, eyes open not moving at all couldn't see him even breathing, popped him upside down to check his belly and he opened his mouth wide thankfully, but I'm not sure he'll make it through the night this is so upsetting. We are keeping a record just trying to leave it a week before next weigh in as I'll fret and panick every day they don't put anything on otherwise.

 

[AHBD]

Poor little things. Sure it's easy to say they'll replace it when they have another group [ probably ] of sick ones.] These dragons should have been free to good caring homes only. At 10 weeks they should weigh at least in the 20 gram range, and some are much heavier than that. You should be reimbursed all your money for this, it's pretty shameful of that breeder to pass off these sick dragons + is probably doing it to other people. The good news is that they probably won't be " breeders" for very long.

BTW, no mealworms for them at all in this condition and any bugs should REALLY be small, def. smaller than the space between their eyes. And if you did do a fecal and they were loaded with pinworms and you knew that you could dose them exactly it might help, but when they're so frail it's a gamble either way.

Have you tried syringe feeding yet ?

 

[Cheapmiester]

Poor little things. Sure it's easy to say they'll replace it when they have another group [ probably ] of sick ones.] These dragons should have been free to good caring homes only. At 10 weeks they should weigh at least in the 20 gram range, and some are much heavier than that. You should be reimbursed all your money for this, it's pretty shameful of that breeder to pass off these sick dragons + is probably doing it to other people. The good news is that they probably won't be " breeders" for very long.

BTW, no mealworms for them at all in this condition and any bugs should REALLY be small, def. smaller than the space between their eyes. And if you did do a fecal and they were loaded with pinworms and you knew that you could dose them exactly it might help, but when they're so frail it's a gamble either way.

Have you tried syringe feeding yet ?

Exactly my thoughts!! I have now 6 dragons, a 5 year old, 2 18 months, 1 at 12 weeks and these 2 little tykes, I can't feed my baby's enough honestly I'm a nightmare they don't chomp for one day I'm like WHY OMG THEY AREN'T EATING (like 3 days ago my boss lady didn't eat. I went and baught bee pollen, paprika, her favourite fruit bugs I think they're called spent a good £15 or fruits and veg...by the time I got home she had pood and finished off what I left for her! I really need to chill sometimes!)

But to give baby's to people in this state, I mean these weren't cheap either at £350 because they are Zeros (which in April was a good going rate!). 2 hours to get to the breeder, wasn't even out of bed yet, then literally sent them to the front door in a small box, cold. I wanted to see the mum and dad, I wanted to see the setup, i wanted to know how the other baby's were, I wanted at least a cup of tea and a quick chat after 7 months on emails etc but no just "here have them" then a message 20 minutes later saying if he dies let me know I'll send another.

I am syringe feeding them as they won't touch anything atm. Mealworms are a no go in our house anyway, but i did buy a box of tiny tiny ones in a panic on the way back because I thought even the smallest dubia roaches I had wouldn't be small enough which most of them aren't! So now I'm crushing and chopping dubias, mixing with a veg/insect mix and a bit of water and feeding them via syringe.

Keep your fingers crossed for the male (his names Chuck) he's not in great shape tonight. He might just be shattered and in a pretty deep sleep but he's really worrying me atm. Setup a luke warm hot water bottle with a blanket wrapped around it twice and I've popped him on top of that (it's literally just slightly warm to touch I wouldn't risk burning him) Temps at 25 according the digital temp gauge but it feels cooler. (Nighttime now so all lights are off).

After we baught them we started to hear a lot of bad things, and I did ask the breeder about the rumours and which to be honest my mind was put to rest by the answers, I thought these people some of them were over exaggerating by what they were saying with no proof, well now I know don't I more fool me! I'd hope she wouldn't be a breeder for much longer but been going for a few years now I can't see it stopping. The male we ordered (who we named crowley) was a gift for my husband's 30th, we didn't get to meet him. He got to 3g and didn't grow any further I'm so worried these little guys are going to do the same ???

 

[AHBD]

You spent an exorbitant amount of money, yes you should have been much more careful and thorough before this venture but now you should post any + all correspondence publicly about these people and I would not want any other creatures from their den of deception. Selling poor creatures for TOP dollar [ I know you're in the U.K, so it's pounds ] and ripping people off with dragons in such deplorable condition. They are making a mint from trusting persons like yourself and should be exposed ASAP !

 

[kingofnobbys]

Hiya guys, I'm new to here but I've read so much advice in previous posts so I'm here to ask for help.

I picked up my 2 baby's on Monday. I already have 4 and I paid the breeder in April. The baby we baught died, and we put it down to just being one of them unfortunate things. We were offered 2 baby's from the next clutch which we accepted.

We went to pick them up on Monday, as they are 10 weeks old and we were getting a little suspicious, things like the female is 7g
<<< are they all centrals or are they rankins ?
<<< 7g at 10 weeks old is EXTREMELY SMALL !
<<< 9g at 12 weeks old is EXTREMELY SMALL !



but the male isn't up to size and the courier won't take him he's too small. Alarm bells started ringing. Especially as weve just picked up recently a 7 week old at 9g and at 12 weeks old hes now 57g from an absolutly amasing breeder!! So we drove 2 hours to go get them rather than wait another however long for an apparent courier.

Picked them up, they were cold and unbelievably small!! I'm backwards, as much as I'm annoyed by the state of them, I'm so glad they are now in my care!

Ok so, we got them home left them for that day to get warm and settle. We weighed them the following day. The female is 4g the male is 3g. We knew then they are in trouble. Their poor little bones stick out of their hips and the male looked weak as hell.

<<< .... that said, they can be Vsmall and suffering malnutrition or just failing to thrive at the breeders' place because they are being stressed by other hatchlings / dominated , and when given the right UVB , temps , and plenty of highly nutritious live insects 3x per day & calcium & vitamins can grow to be nice adult dragons.

<<< .... IMO they are worth giving them a chance at a happy and healthy life , I'd probably take them too .... but i'm a soft touch for animals in distress (espec lizards !).

<<< .... I'd set up side by side or stacked 100 L tubs / totes like this : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480

Tuesday, they ate 2 small roaches and 2 small meal worms each. They pooped. They are so weak and malnourished.

Yesterday they wouldn't pick up, were asleep most of the day, so I ran around a few reptile specialist near us to see if their was anything I could pick up to help. I've got a tiny 1ml syringe, and I have smashed up 10 roaches and mixed it with some veg/insect mix that somebody recommended to help with the appetite.

They've both eaten from syringe yesterday and today, I am seriously concerned about them.

Our reptile vet basically said they are too small, and what we are doing is all that can be recommended, so I thought id ask you guys if you have any further advice/tips for me!

We have pancur and something else on the way as 1 of my adults had pinworm so we ordered it from America for any future bugs (don't worry, we are on that, and have a tonne of hand sanitizer in the house, their cages are wiped down daily and thoroughly cleaned every week! Good job they like being pampered ??)

So my main question, whilst in syringe feeding them both, do you have any suggestions what to give them and how much!! I feel like I'm giving them too much for their size (only about 0.3ml each time, did it 3 times yesterday with 5 hours inbetween each feeding, and today the same at 9- 12- 3.30- 8. Each syringe contains 10 small dubia roaches chopped and crushed, with this veg/insect mix in it.

I'm so desperate, we have had a slow grower before but he was 7 months old when we got him so that was quite easy to manage, these guys are so unbelievably tiny and fragile I don't want to overfeed/underfeed/stress them out too much!!

Any advice would really help! We've sent off a poo sample today so should know in a few days hopefully if we've also got bugs to deal with!!

I'm heartbroken by this and I'll do anything I can for them. I'm off work atm so I'm spending most of my day scaring the poor types with my ugly mug pressed up against the glass making sure they're still breathing. I have to fight for them, please please please has anybody any experience with tiny tiny baby's that have a success story, any advice will help!!!!!

Setup is a 3 foot wide by 1.5 foot high and 1 foot wide, we have an arcadia 12% in, 100w heat bulb and a thermostat to keep temps at warm end at 40 degrees. Cool end is between 28-29 degrees, I open the glass a few times through the day to keep this level as it does tend to go a little higher sometimes (only to 30 though)
<<<< very important to separately house the little mites from the getgo to be able to give them all the very best chance and ensure everyone gets their share of the live insects :
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=237167


They are bot interested in feeding themselves, they have no energy at all, today they have perked up slightly but still not what you'd expect from baby's.

Thankyou in advance and please no bashing, I am doing everything I can for them that I've been advised and researched also, if you have different advice I will appreciate and accept it anything that might help!!!!

 

[AHBD]

How are they doing today ? Did the male make it and are they eating/drinking anything ? Water dripped on the snout may get them to drink.

And as for the syringe feedings I meant to write 0.3 or 0.4 ml's, not 3-4 ml's but you probably figured that out ! :shock:

 

[EllenD]

Wow, that breeder needs to be reported, I'd bet my life that she just simply lied to you about their ages, I don't believe for a second that they're 10 or 12 weeks old, and why would the shipping company care about their size when shipping them, how would they even know anything about them, they're just the shippers? My guess is this breeder was stringing you along because you said you "already paid for them months ago", right? So the breeder took your money and probably either sold your 2 babiess that were the ages he told you to someone else, since she already had your money, and then hurried up and bred his poor breeders again and was making excuses to you while waiting for them to hatch. The reason he wouldn't ship them is because they are probably only a few weeks old. That's my best guess, not the first time I've see this scam, it's sad because they're an expensive morph and she is just raking in the money with total disregard for the animals.

You're doing everything you can, you need to get nutrition and hydration in them, if you can order some Oxbow Critical Care online I would do that and syringe feed them that, it's meant for this particular situation...NO MEDICATIONS AT ALL!!! That will completely kill any chance of them eating on their own...

Also, I totally agree that you need to separate them ASAP to give them the best chance possible. I'm sorry this happened to you, but hopefully they'll get over this hump and make it. You do need to post everything that happens with them on here, and I would totally expose this breeder to save anyone else from being taken advantage of. This is a totally unscrupulous, malicious breeder of expensive morphs and she is purposely abusing animals and taking advantage of people to make huge amounts of money...imagine a clutch of 20-30 of them, how much money she is making...it needs to stop, people need to warned.

 

[AHBD]

Cheapmeister I hope I didn't scare you away, I just feel outraged for you and the babies.

Ellen the O.P drove 2 hours to the breeders house, breeder came to door in pajamas I believe and handed them a cold box. O.P was not permitted in to the house to see the other animals. Paid the equivalent of nearly $500 a piece for these months ago. And yes they could be 10 weeks old, stunted and barely grown since hatching.

 

[Cheapmiester]

Cheapmeister I hope I didn't scare you away, I just feel outraged for you and the babies.

Ellen the O.P drove 2 hours to the breeders house, breeder came to door in pajamas I believe and handed them a cold box. O.P was not permitted in to the house to see the other animals. Paid the equivalent of nearly $500 a piece for these months ago. And yes they could be 10 weeks old, stunted and barely grown since hatching.

Hi guys I'm sorry for the late reply. Was a little overwhelmed the other day. The male didn't male it through the night, however we've had his results back and he was positive for pinworm, which explains the bloated tummy and at such a small size explains to me why he died. I haven't found out the cause as my daughter was too upset and wanted to give him his own garden spot so that's what we did. The female was doing ok until today, other than not eating she was much more alive,but she has also had a very bloated tummy today so she's had pancur just now. Literally I dipped the syringe in and fed her what was on the end of the syringe. There was no way of measuring 0.0025 ml. It's a wait and see for her now. Going to give her tomorrow to relax with the meds and just keep my fingers crossed. What annoys me about this, our previous baby died that we picked in april and the breeder told me she had ordered medication from America to treat all the baby's in future incase it happened again. She obviously isnt using it.

Response to the previous post, she sent me a message the moment they were born which was the 1st week of August and I chose them then, she told me the female was 7g and the male was slightly behind, that's why I went to pick them up, i thought that at 7g or 6g I could get them safely home and feed them up as we originally thought they weren't being fed correctly. At home they weighed 3g each. I'll keep you up to date on the female. She has been sat today with a bloated tummy, eyes closed but head up. Keep your fingers crossed guys for me please, little man didn't make it through the night at this stage but I'm hoping she's strong enough to stay with us. My little beauty Dagon ??

I miss Chuck. Had him for 3 days and I miss him he had a lovely little character.

 

[Cheapmiester]

Wow, that breeder needs to be reported, I'd bet my life that she just simply lied to you about their ages, I don't believe for a second that they're 10 or 12 weeks old, and why would the shipping company care about their size when shipping them, how would they even know anything about them, they're just the shippers? My guess is this breeder was stringing you along because you said you "already paid for them months ago", right? So the breeder took your money and probably either sold your 2 babiess that were the ages he told you to someone else, since she already had your money, and then hurried up and bred his poor breeders again and was making excuses to you while waiting for them to hatch. The reason he wouldn't ship them is because they are probably only a few weeks old. That's my best guess, not the first time I've see this scam, it's sad because they're an expensive morph and she is just raking in the money with total disregard for the animals.

You're doing everything you can, you need to get nutrition and hydration in them, if you can order some Oxbow Critical Care online I would do that and syringe feed them that, it's meant for this particular situation...NO MEDICATIONS AT ALL!!! That will completely kill any chance of them eating on their own...

Also, I totally agree that you need to separate them ASAP to give them the best chance possible. I'm sorry this happened to you, but hopefully they'll get over this hump and make it. You do need to post everything that happens with them on here, and I would totally expose this breeder to save anyone else from being taken advantage of. This is a totally unscrupulous, malicious breeder of expensive morphs and she is purposely abusing animals and taking advantage of people to make huge amounts of money...imagine a clutch of 20-30 of them, how much money she is making...it needs to stop, people need to warned.

I see the part about no meds and I absolutely did not want to do it, but i cant see any other option, she has pinworm, more than she should have, she needed something! I rang my local vet who is good with reptiles and he adviced me to do this and I'm ringing him back in 2 days if her tummy is still bloated. She is sending me a new male out (not that is makes it any better) he's only 3 weeks old at the minute and is already bigger than these 2 (apparently,I don't trust a word now!).

If he turns up in the same state, I will be demanding my money back, reporting her to the rspca and any and all places I can!!!! I know where she lives, worst case ill drive back to her house and take her damn dragons from her! I have proof that they were sent to me with pinworm, proof they were 3g at 10 weeks and now proof they were not in the correct setup for baby. at this size ponworm it can be deadly, which it has been! It's worse still that now I'm sure their are plenty of breeders out their who are fantastic that I will now never trust due to this situation.never ever ever again!!! I will look up what you have suggested and order some! Thankyou for your time and advice I sincerely appreciate it xxx

 

[Akire]

I'm very sorry for your loss, you tried your best.
Do you have a separate setup for the new male? You will need to quarantine the sick baby from the new male. Make sure you don't share anything between them and wash your hands.