Time to euthanize?

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szubelak

Juvie Member
hi all, I know I've been gone for a long time. I stopped posting when my students starting finding my posts on the internet. (I'm a high school teacher) I need to put my thoughts out into the world and this is the only place I can do that. People that don't have reptiles just don't get it.

My brother and his husky moved in with me in October. It never occurred to me that Penny (the husky) would do harm to my bearded dragons. (My dog has always gotten along with them fine, if anything one of my dragons - Ernie, actually chases her sometimes) One day in November, stupid me left Bert in the bathtub and I went to the kitchen. Long story short Penny broke 6 of Bert's ribs. We went to the vet right away, got the x ray, diagnosis and pain medication etc.

Bert wasn't eating on his own which I figured was due to the pain/injury etc. So I was "force" feeding him a combo of bugs, repta-aid, baby food etc. After about 8 weeks of this he was giving the signs of wanting to brumate. So I let him because I figured that was long enough for him to have healed.

He woke up on his own about 1.5 - 2 months ago. He still would not eat on his own. I also noticed he was really thin so I eventually started the force feeding routine again. In the last 3 weeks i started noticing a darker then normal beard, not major .. just not the normal pure white beard. I also noticed that he was never straightened out. His back sometimes has a curve to it when he's laying down. sometimes he even has like a hump in his back.

Anyhow I finally took him to the vet on Saturday. He had a clean fecal. We did another x ray and all 6 ribs have healed nicely - you can see the bone callouses clearly in the x ray. We also did blood work to look at kidney/liver function etc. Have NOT gotten those results yet. The vet agreed with me that the posture stuff is weird. You can't see anything on the x-ray regarding a back injury.

Vet said it's likely 1 of 2 things - a soft tissue injury to the back/spine whatever or internal organ injury from the original bite that we're just seeing the consequences of now. He prescribed an anti-inflammatory to rule out the back. He said if it's the soft tissue back thing we should see a difference with the behavior, desire to eat etc. He also said if it does the trick being on the anti-inflammatory long term will be no problem.

Now I know this is only day 4 of meds but I see no change. If anything his beard has been darker the last 2 days. But maybe I've just been paying more attention to him. I just have this sinking feeling that I am going to have to put him to sleep. All because of my stupid actions. Its just so unfair to him. he didn't sign up for this. What gives us the right to even keep them as pets?

If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading. Has anyone ever had similar health issues with a dragon?

Thanks in advance,
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi Lesley, I'm sorry to hear about the accident. :( How is Bert moving in general ? Does he walk about the tank, does he climb ? Does he hold his head up + seem alert ? A black beard can indicate pain or stress or it can just be because he's a male and it's hormonal. He doesn't sound too bad right now. Can you post a few pics of him ? Here's how :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/
Then hit XIMG
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I am sorry about the injuries, it was a terrible accident! :cry:
Did they check for metabolic bone disease also, with the hump on his back?
It definitely could also be soft tissue damage from the bite, too.
Unfortunately things happen, life is definitely never perfect.
I hope that Bert is doing better soon.

Tracie
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
I wouldn't want to be in your position with such a terrible / heartbreaking possible decision to make.
I'M A SOFTY and for me my pet lizards are little scaley 4 legged people/children.

It comes down to his quality of life .... if he's still mobile and doing beardie things , he's probably just on a very long road to recovery and you will have to be VERY PATIENT.
UNLIKE MAMMALS - reptiles take a VERY LONG TIME to recover and mend from injuries , because of their very slow metabolisms ... was probably not a good idea to allow him to brumate while injured and not in peak fitness and condition, this is recoverable though. It would be unfortunate if you put him down prematurely.

When the vet examined Bert initially after the dog attacked him , were there any puncture wounds ? did the vet think there were internal injuries (damage to vital organs) ?

If only cracked / broken ribs, he came off very lightly and he deserves more time to heal (extra UVB , dietary calcium and pain relief, a warmer enclosure (I reckon day and night in order to keep his metabolism running at a higher level) while recovering and if he were beardie unless the vet said his prognosis was poor or that he was suffering and his quality of life was RS.

I'd be prepared to hand feed him for the rest of his life , he might have decided he enjoys this and might not want to go back to catching his bugs.
 

szubelak

Juvie Member
Original Poster
Its 10:30 PM now so I'll have to get pictures tomorrow. He is moving, walking and climbing just fine. when I come home from work he is NOT alert but perks up after I hold him and give him some snuggles. I have 2 boys and they do get hormonal this time of year. Today Bert did start to head bob at Ernie which he hasn't done in all this mess... so good sign I guess.

They did not say anything about MBD.

There were NO puncture wounds - he looked completely fine - he didn't even get a black beard right away. Vet did NOT say anything about possible other internal injuries. You might be right on the hand feeding thing.

I got him to eat 4 hornworms today (mediums).

Blood results came in today. He has an elevated WBC count so the vet started him on an antibiotic today. He also has elevated uric acid levels which he said may be due to dehydration or gout (sp). we are going a recheck of blood test in 2 weeks. vet said to bathe every day... that's how we got into this mess to begin. I can hold my boys' noses to a running faucet and they'll drink. I can also get them to drink from a medicine dropper. I'm thinking doing either of these will be fine as opposed to daily baths.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hopefully things will turn out O.K. with the new concerns. If he's drinking from a dropper, that is perfect....keep that up. And it's wonderful that he's climbing + moving around normally and eating, those are all positive things !
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
All those are excellent indicators .... so I'd just wait for the hormonal seasonal changes to self rectify , two boys .... I bet you get some vigorous headnodding and loads of bbing of each at each other.

Yep - I second the eyedropping technique for giving them a drink.

They can have Internal abscesses that can be the result of an injury .... this might be what's causing the elevated WBC count , this might be making him feel off.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
It looks like the first 2 pics his back is not so hunched [ although it's harder to see clearly because they're upside down] Is it partly the position he's in in the 3rd pic or does it always look more or less like that ?
 

szubelak

Juvie Member
Original Poster
he is able to straighten out, he'll let me do it to him no problem. the vet was even doing it while we were there. But usually he lays in a way that isn't "straight".

I'm a little upset tonight with my vet. I called because I basically wanted to know if we should stop the antibiotic. He had his 2nd dose today and has since been a total black beard all the way to his chest. Like can't physically get any more black. One of his arms is stiff too. This is sounding eerily like my last rescue from 4 years ago. Back then my gut said the meds were doing more harm than good. And my gut is saying the same thing today. When I called I relayed my message to the receptionist, she went to find a vet tech to see if they had something to tell me right then. She came back having spoken to the Vet himself. The message was that "he's probably just upset that I've been giving him medicine" WHAT THE HECK DUDE!!! If you read my pet's files you would know how hands on I am with my dragons. If you listened to me while I was there you would know that I pretty regularly feed my dragons baby food through a syringe since they have never eaten veggies of any sort. I was so pissed I was tearing up. I have pretty much decided I'm not giving him either the anti-inflammatory or antibiotic tomorrow or probably the next couple days. If and when he returns to normal I'll do the anti-inflammatory again and see how he responds.. then maybe I'll ask for a different antibiotic. I am also tempted to call and ask for the other vet that knows how I am with my dragons and was with me the whole way for my other rescue (Oscar) :cry: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=167278
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
szubelak":2gtcoecc said:
he is able to straighten out, he'll let me do it to him no problem. the vet was even doing it while we were there. But usually he lays in a way that isn't "straight".

I'm a little upset tonight with my vet. I called because I basically wanted to know if we should stop the antibiotic. He had his 2nd dose today and has since been a total black beard all the way to his chest. Like can't physically get any more black. One of his arms is stiff too. This is sounding eerily like my last rescue from 4 years ago. Back then my gut said the meds were doing more harm than good. And my gut is saying the same thing today. When I called I relayed my message to the receptionist, she went to find a vet tech to see if they had something to tell me right then. She came back having spoken to the Vet himself. The message was that "he's probably just upset that I've been giving him medicine" WHAT THE HECK DUDE!!! If you read my pet's files you would know how hands on I am with my dragons. If you listened to me while I was there you would know that I pretty regularly feed my dragons baby food through a syringe since they have never eaten veggies of any sort. I was so pissed I was tearing up. I have pretty much decided I'm not giving him either the anti-inflammatory or antibiotic tomorrow or probably the next couple days. If and when he returns to normal I'll do the anti-inflammatory again and see how he responds.. then maybe I'll ask for a different antibiotic. I am also tempted to call and ask for the other vet that knows how I am with my dragons and was with me the whole way for my other rescue (Oscar) :cry: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=167278

BAD IDEA TO STOP midstream in a course of antibiotics .... the risk is any infection will flare up and become drug-resistant. I think you'll be very silly to stop the antibiotics prematurely WITHOUT the vet's approval.

I know for a fact to some oral antibiotics are vile tasting, I had a rescued / injured water skink (LUCKY) who detested the taste of his , and I had to give him his by syringe and very fine plastic catheter into the mouth twice daily and he'd get upset as soon as he saw the syringe or smelt the stuff (we even tried hiding it from him until the last moment .... never worked , he'd be squirming and wriggling and trying to put his mouth where I couldn't get at it ....), and he was like a crazy lizard under my cupped hands for about 30seconds afterwards on EACH AND EVERY DOSE.
I wouldn't be the at all surprised your beardie is bbing , he's probably getting a very nasty taste in his mouth that he can't get rid off .... try giving him some manuka medical honey after his doses, this will:
--- get rid of the nasty taste
--- give him some health benefits (is also a natural antibiotic)
 

szubelak

Juvie Member
Original Poster
I'm a biologist, I know all about antibiotic resistance - when the med is doing more harm than good you stop it. Vet agreed with me. Bye bye antibiotic. I just hope he perks back up... I don't need a repeat of Oscar.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Yes, I agree that sometimes there is a need to stop the meds. How is his arm ? Is he doing any better ? Best wishes to your baby Bert. :)
 

szubelak

Juvie Member
Original Poster
Just this evening his beard has become less black.. I would say its the level of black that it was around when we started the anti-inflammatory. I'm going to give him the A-I tomorrow afternoon. He's very lethargic, wouldn't eat on his own today. I was going for the hands off approach today in case I was stressing him. I got him to drink about 5 cc of water from the medicine dropper today. we'll see where he's at when I get home from work tomorrow.

Thanks all!
 
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