The "beardies can't sense heat on their stomachs" debate

[GoFast]

You all know the argument that they can't sense heat from underneath and can burn themselves if a uth fails.....

My problem with this is that in the wild, they lie on very hot rocks in the dead of summer. How hot do you think a rock gets in the blazing sun?? 110? 130? 180? I have heard that babies especially will lay on hot rocks.

They can tell if their body temps are getting too hot as shown when they open their mouths when basking to thermoregulate so where did this notion come from that they can't sense heat from their bellies?

 

[Phoenix17June2009]

You know i have wondered the samething, when i took phoenix to the doctor, i made him rice socks, when he was cold he would lay on them and I think that when he got hot he would get off and come see what i was doing.... so i have always wondered as well. not to mention, when his bath water gets too warm for him... he puffs me and gives me a black beard... when i add cool water to it he puffs back down and blackness goes away... thats the only thing i can associate it with... i could be wayyyyy off but i'm just not sure... all i know is what i have always been taught, that they cant sense the heat on their stomachs, but you do bring an interesting point.... hopefully others will throw some thoughts in on this....

 

[Gail]

Its not so much that they can't sense the heat from their bellies but the fact that heat rocks get so hot, so fast and can cause burns before the lizard realizes they are overheated. Also, when basking on a rock in the wild, they are seeking the suns rays more then the rock surface temps.
Dragons might like a warm surface to lay on but that doesn't negate the fact they need overhead heat to simulate their natural basking behavior.
Heat rocks are just too unstable and prone to overheating, that makes them very unsafe. There have been too many lizards/snakes fatally burned on them.

 

[spyder79]

Its not that dragons CANT sense heat from underneath, its that it takes much longer for them to register the presence of the heat. Couple that with when a uth or heat rock shorts out it can flash up to 250 degrees in seconds, and you get the "dragons cant feel heat and will burn themselves" arguement. As with most of the care listed on this site it is to be on the safe side.

 

[fresnowitte]

I'm gonna have to agree with Gail and Brian on this one. I have personally had a UTH short out before...believe me like Brian said it can jump right up to and over 250*. With that being said even for something like us humans if a temp was to jump that high that fast and we even can feel it...could we move before being burnt? I think not...I also think not worth the risk...UTH are prone to short out over time that's usually how they die(mainly due to design).

 

[GoFast]

Its not so much that they can't sense the heat from their bellies but the fact that heat rocks get so hot, so fast and can cause burns before the lizard realizes they are overheated.

The risk would be the same for ANY animal then and they are widely used with other reptiles so what's the big caution with bearded dragons then?? Do snake forums or iguana forums say this same stuff??

Also, when basking on a rock in the wild, they are seeking the suns rays more then the rock surface temps.
Dragons might like a warm surface to lay on but that doesn't negate the fact they need overhead heat to simulate their natural basking behavior.

Dragons might like a warm surface to lay on but that doesn't negate the fact they need overhead heat to simulate their natural basking behavior.

It has never been questioned that they are *seeking* the rays. What is being questioned is the widely spread idea that they *can't* sense the heat from below and can be burned. My point is that when they lay on these rocks in the wild the surface temp of the rock is incredibly warm and they do not get burns there because if the rocks is too hot, they get off of it or avoid it. Whether they seek that source of heat or not is not the point of *this* discussion.

Heat rocks are just too unstable and prone to overheating, that makes them very unsafe. There have been too many lizards/snakes fatally burned on them.

So rather than spreading the mantra that dragons can't sense heat from below, wouldn't it be better to spread the correct info??

 

[GoFast]

Its not that dragons CANT sense heat from underneath, its that it takes much longer for them to register the presence of the heat. Couple that with when a uth or heat rock shorts out it can flash up to 250 degrees in seconds, and you get the "dragons cant feel heat and will burn themselves" arguement. As with most of the care listed on this site it is to be on the safe side.

Which was my entire point of this thread. It is repeated over and over that dragons "can't" sense heat from below and I am trying to find out where this came from. I rather the truth be spread blindly than false info even if it is with good intentions.

 

[fresnowitte]

It would be more correct to say "that they do not sense heat as well from below as above."


I truely believe from watching some of my own beardies antics that they do not sense it from below as well as from above. I believe that it takes them longer to sense it from below, not that they don't. JMO

 

[GoFast]

ya know Barbara, I'm not even convinced that they seek the heat from above. I think that whether the heat source is from below or above, is irrelevant to them as they will thermoregulate their body temps no matter what. If they feel warm, then they feel warm.

I think the reason they seek the rays if the sun has nothing to do with heat but rather UV.

It would be more correct to say "that they do not sense heat as well from below as above."


I truely believe from watching some of my own beardies antics that they do not sense it from below as well as from above. I believe that it takes them longer to sense it from below, not that they don't. JMO

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

HeHe... what I'm SENSING here is a HEATED discussion about to take place (especially when you consider the posters involved :wink: :lol: )

I am at work... let me help this person and I will be back to give my take on this discussion :wink:

 

[Phoenix17June2009]

HeHe... what I'm SENSING here is a HEATED discussion about to take place (especially when you consider the posters involved :wink: :lol: )

I am at work... let me help this person and I will be back to give my take on this discussion :wink:

as do i my friend... I'm not saying i would ever use a heat rock or anything like that but i have often wondered about them being in the desert and all on sand and rocks and what not... i guess you just never really know what goes on out there...

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

I was baffled the first time I heard someone say that a bearded dragon cannot sense heat from underneath. I had done a little research on it a year ago. This was one of the articles I found on the subject. You determine which one of these theories you like best :wink:



We don't know nearly enough about pain perception in reptiles. For instance, why is the incidence of thermal burns so high? Most reptile veterinarians have seen literally hundreds of third- and fourth-degree burns from malfunctioning hot rocks and poorly placed basking lights. One theory is that reptiles are so primitive that, by the time the burn is perceived, they don't know the appropriate response. While I don't like this theory, there are some components which may be accurate. To begin with, the reptile was able to perceive warmth as was attracted to the hot rock. Why then did it fail to perceive that the hot rock was becoming too hot? This is an alien thought for us, as we have a well-developed withdrawal reflex. If we touch anything perceived to be too hot, we withdraw immediately and reflexively, without further mental processing. This is such a strong reflex that you would be hard pressed to force yourself to touch such a hot object.

One theory is that the nerve endings (receptors) that are able to sense heat are different from those that sense pain. Perhaps the pain receptors are poorly developed because, during evolution, objects hot enough to burn are uncommon in the wild and such receptors therefore aren't needed. One would then lack a burn/pain withdrawal reflex.

Another theory is based more on learning than evolution. If the reptile doesn't associate touching an object with a certain response, perhaps it doesn't realize that moving will help. Perhaps this "learning association" theory is at work with ball pythons and boas that remain passive while a rodent perches on its coils and chews away at their flesh and bones. Could these snakes have learned

 

[GoFast]

Nice play on words there Dawn! :lol: I really hope this becomes a good discussion based on a lot fact and sound theories so we can all learn!

HeHe... what I'm SENSING here is a HEATED discussion about to take place (especially when you consider the posters involved :wink: :lol: )

I am at work... let me help this person and I will be back to give my take on this discussion :wink:

 

[foto69man]

them being in the desert and all on sand and rocks and what not... i guess you just never really know what goes on out there...

I could have sworn that the desert isn't their main habitat. That they are mainly found in the semi-arid plains/treed areas...? I could be wrong, but I thought someone asked that awhile back and our Aussie members helped confirm that.



Now for the heat part, I am sure they feel heat all over their body, and UTH are very tempermental and bad in general for pets/humans...but they will always be around and used.

Now when a beardie darkens/lightens, is this inconjunction with the thermoregulation? Or just to gather more light? If it deals with the heat aspect, then how come their stomachs don't do the same thing? Anyone know a biology major? :lol:

 

[GoFast]

Well by definition, a "desert" is 1. A barren or desolate area, especially:
a. A dry, often sandy region of little rainfall, extreme temperatures, and sparse vegetation.
b. A region of permanent cold that is largely or entirely devoid of life.
c. An apparently lifeless area of water.
2. An empty or forsaken place; a wasteland: a cultural desert.
3. Archaic A wild, uncultivated, and uninhabited region.

So just because it isn't hot and sandy like the Sahara, doesn't mean it's not a desert. The arid plains of Australia could be considered a "desert"
It is my understanding that dragons live in several habitats within Australia including urban/semi urban place. The ashpalt of the roads of concrete sidewalks can all get very, very, very hot in the middle of the summer but does that mean that dragons avoid them? If not, does it mean that they get burnt from walking on them?

You raise some good questions though to this discussion!

them being in the desert and all on sand and rocks and what not... i guess you just never really know what goes on out there...

I could have sworn that the desert isn't their main habitat. That they are mainly found in the semi-arid plains/treed areas...? I could be wrong, but I thought someone asked that awhile back and our Aussie members helped confirm that.



Now for the heat part, I am sure they feel heat all over their body, and UTH are very tempermental and bad in general for pets/humans...but they will always be around and used.

Now when a beardie darkens/lightens, is this inconjunction with the thermoregulation? Or just to gather more light? If it deals with the heat aspect, then how come their stomachs don't do the same thing? Anyone know a biology major? :lol: