Swollen toes & feet

[AHBD]

Your humidity is fine at 40%, even a tad higher. A humid mossy hide out is not going to hydrate your lizard. Some species require high humidity because it ads in shedding, or they are tropical animals but it does not hydrate them. A soggy sleeping area for a beardie may introduce bacteria + a respiratory infection. No one does this with their beardies. You might consider looking for a more knowledgeable vet.

 

[SHBailey]

This scenario sounds a little familiar... It seems that it isn't always as easy as we sometimes think it should be for veterinarians to figure out whether or not an animal (reptile or otherwise) has an infection, and if so, what kind of an infection, and then how best to treat it. :?

When our beardie was diagnosed with adenovirus two years ago, the first thing that showed up was swellings in his elbows and wrists, and resulting limping and shaking, probably because it was painful. The vet aspirated the goop and looked at it under a microscope, but couldn't see anything but "amorphous debris" -- no obvious microorganisms and no obvious uric acid crystals, etc. And they could never culture anything identifiable from the goop either, although a few attempts were made. Eventually, after several rounds of what I suppose were broad spectrum antibiotics, he just seemed to slowly recover over time, although his situation was a little different than what's happening with Shelby.

I guess the bottom line is that sometimes all you can do is keep them warm, keep them hydrated, feed them the most nutritious food you can get them to eat, keep them as comfortable as possible, treat whatever comes up as best you can, etc etc -- in other words, "supportive care", and hope that for all that, maybe their own immune system can get a handle on it so they can recover. It sounds like you're getting a lot of good help both from your vet and from the people here, so I hope that some or all of these suggestions will help Shelby.

BTW, does anyone feel like they're up on the latest research on probiotics? The last time I checked, the jury was still out about what sorts of benefits could be reasonably expected from them, as well as what particular mix of microbes would be best for which individuals and in which situations, for humans as well as for animals. The idea that if it doesn't help, it probably won't hurt, is probably a pretty safe guess, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of any recent research. It seems that our knowledge of the "microbiome" is still in its infancy because we haven't had to worry about it until fairly recently in our history -- until we got ourselves and our pets into artificial environments, it probably pretty much took care of itself most of the time. :?

 

[AHBD]

SH, you can't really overlook the bad vet advice here. While the vet found nothing wrong with the bloodwork, Drache [ Tracie ] was alarmed by the high uric acid levels. 3 months of antibiotics followed by 3 months of a powerful antifungal "just in case" is really excessive when there was no diagnosis except the high uric acid that apparently they missed.

And a mossy hide is just not for beardies. I'd be looking for another vet.

 

[Misky]

Today at the vet we noticed another toe had become swollen. She drew samples from that & his bump on back. Guess they were full of "cells" I think was the word. Shes sending them off to the pathologist. Will hear back within a week if they were able to tell whats wrong. Fingers are crossed! She did mention Uric Acid levels were high but said the specialist & a radiologist both looked at xrays & said they were good. As for the fluorescent light I use (Zilla), she didnt think that caused the issue either as my other beardie is perfectly healthy & they were housed together until last July. I will still get the other lights just to ease that worry tho. As for the damp moss, Shelby refused to go in cave if it was in there so I just put a little by log & he'd sometimes lay on it. His humidity was at 30% so she just wanted to try raising it. Up to around 45% now. Must have been weather related. As for switching vets, shes already my 2nd opinion dr. Hard to know who knows what but she is consulting with a specialist which I appreciate so... Waiting on results to see what to do next.

 

[SHBailey]

SH, you can't really overlook the bad vet advice here. While the vet found nothing wrong with the bloodwork, Drache [ Tracie ] was alarmed by the high uric acid levels. 3 months of antibiotics followed by 3 months of a powerful antifungal "just in case" is really excessive when there was no diagnosis except the high uric acid that apparently they missed.

And a mossy hide is just not for beardies. I'd be looking for another vet.

Point taken. I guess I was just thinking in more general terms. :?

My beardie's uric acid levels have been all over the map, to the point that I wondered about the reliability of the blood tests, but my vet told me it can fluctuate over time in the same individual depending on hydration, diet, etc. Like Shelby, gout was considered as a possible problem in Puff's case too, but they found no other evidence of it. If they were able to get some actual "cells" from Shelby, maybe they will be able to identify them so they can figure out what kind of treatment will be effective. Hopefully it will be something that's easier to cure than gout would have been.

Good thing Shelby had enough sense to stay out of the cave with the damp moss in it.

 

[Rankins]

AHBD..."Ignore the bad vet advice here" confuses me. I know we are not vets, but we are trying to help the OP and the dragon. Yes, maybe alot of it is speculation on our part, but I feel most of the help we are offering is sage advice.
Your point about the antibiotic and a correlation to fungus might be correct...but I think the problem started before the antibiotics. I think antibiotics only affect internal yeast growth. Not sure if this increases chances for skin funguses.

 

[Rankins]

Forgot to mention that the oral antifungals meds are really hard on the liver. Your vet will probably want to do regular liver function labs if she/he extends treatment with them.

 

[AHBD]

Rankins , that statement was about the treatment that the vets have prescribed, not anyone commenting here. I hate to read about people spending a ton of money, giving their animals potentially harmful drugs for extended periods + wasting time on guesses.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Uric acid levels can fluctuate with hydration, etc. If they stay high for too long, renal damage can occur which will usually lead to gout in some form.
The only other thing I can think of that could be effective would be Azithromycin. It is a broad spectrum antimicrobial agent, which works a bit differently than a traditional antibiotic.
There have been a few cases here that have had some swelling such as this which responded to this drug when they said gout was just not present.
Though, as I have read, gout seems to evade a lot of vets. The crystals are not always calcium based & sometimes sodium based which are not easily detectable on x-ray. They aspirated fluids from the swollen area, correct to culture & did not find any crystallization at all?

Tracie

 

[Rankins]

AHBD, Ahhh....I read that totally different than intended. I couldn't figure it out because advice is what we are good at

 

[Misky]

Drache613, My vet seen a lot of cells from the fluid drawn out of swollen toe but it didnt give her any direct answers so she sent it off to a pathologist. She sometimes speaks "dr language" so I get confused at what shes saying sometimes, except that she still doesnt have an answer on whats wrong. She seemed offended that I was getting other advice when I mentioned the gout again & that medicine & basically just said theres no cure for it. Ugh! But I do want to wait until these test results come back before getting other meds. Will continue with black cherry juice tho.

 

[SHBailey]

If a vet (or any other kind of doctor, for that matter) gets offended if you don't rely solely on her advice and seem to be getting 2nd opinions from others, or if she isn't willing to translate medicalese into plain English for you when you have no idea what the heck she's talking about, that raises some more red flags. :shock: (notwithstanding some of my previous comments earlier in this thread)

She may have meant that if a bearded dragon (or a human, for that matter) is genetically predisposed toward gout, there's really no cure for that, but it's my understanding that sometimes it can at least be managed. There is a medication called allopurinol that's supposed to help with gout by reducing uric acid levels, but just like any medication you don't want to use it if your beardie's uric acid levels are normal, because in that case it won't do any good and it could have side effects. Waiting for the test results before giving him any more meds is probably a really good idea at this point.

 

[Rankins]

Gout isn't a permanent issue if it's in the joints. Diet change and allopurinol should clear the joints of the crystals. Some people (assuming it's the same for animals) are more predisposed to the problem, but it is manageable. If the crystals are in organs it is harder to treat and could be a chronic issue.
Because most vets talk in "doctor language" so frequently they sometimes forget that not everyone understands the language they speak. As a nurse I ran into that problem all the time when talking to patients. Vets want you to understand completely on what is going on with your pet, so they shouldn't mind clarifying anything your confused over. Teaching is one of the most valuable things your vet (or doctor) can do for you.

 

[SHBailey]

Thanks, Rankins. You said it better than I could. :silent:

 

[Misky]

Shelbys test results came back! They (pathologist & vet) are still saying that nothing definitive came out of sample from Shelbys toe to say exactly whats wrong, but they DID notice crystals this time. So he is started on the Allopurinol. Although vet thinks gout just started from having kidney disease. ??? Unfortunately, his tail continued to die upwards so it was not due to shedding. The specialist said it would be an infection causing it to do this. About 2" of his tail is dying off now. So he is also started on an antibiotic, along with a probiotic. They're not sure if tail & feet are connected but hopefully both will get fixed from this. Will keep people updated on his condition.