Swollen joints - gout? MBD? (Pictures and x-ray)

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is wonderful she doesn't seem to be uncomfortable or in pain at all. At least she likes the black cherry juice, it is good for her.
It sounds like she loves her new light if she is basking away under it! I hope it helps her out a lot.
You are right, she most likely has developed gout. They will probably need to place her on allopurinol to treat it.
Which greens are you trying for her? They can really be picky about their greens! Keep trying & hopefully you will find some that she eventually likes.

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[Gryphex]

Update time!

I've been continuing to give her the black cherry juice most days out of the week since I bought it and she's gotten better about drinking from the dropper. Her mood has been pretty good but I also notice that the gout hasn't gotten any better (in fact, I've found some on her back toes now ) and she seems to be trying to take it easy.

Finally got to the vet yesterday, the only reptile vet in the area, and he confirmed our suspicions. He also said that to his knowledge and from his research, there doesn't really seem to be anything that can be done to reverse what's already grown in her joints. He said my best course of action is to modify her diet (a bit less protein and more veggies) and that I could give her medicine to help with her pain (since it's becoming clear that she doesn't feel as tip-top as she used to). He prescribed gabapentin to be given orally every day to help her.

He also recommended an x-ray to confirm that it was gout and not some other infection, which, after hesitating to pay $86 for, he offered to do for FREE "for educational purposes". I was so happy that he offered to do that for me.

He said the little white spots on her joints are where the gout has formed. We're also pretty sure she's gravid!



Veggie-wise, I went back to kale this morning and she gobbled up a lot of it, which I was happy to see.

I'm still curious to hear what you guys think about all this so please, fire away with your comments.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, she does appear gravid!
Is he not going to treat the gout? It isn't too late, but if he doesn't put her on allopurinol, then
I would recommend getting some on your own to treat her. A pain killer isn't going to treat the gout at all. She needs a medication to help reduce uric acid production.
The black cherry juice helps & getting some alfalfa meal will help as well.
Allopurinol needs to be started immediately since there is swelling. No, it can't really be reversed, but it can be halted so it wont continue to get worse. Some of the swelling could go down also, with treatment.
How is she doing, overall?

Tracie

 

[Gryphex]

Based on the comments he made, it doesn't seem like he had any intention. I don't think he'd heard of any cases where the treatment has been successful. He mentioned that some vets try surgery to remove the gout in the joints, but that in those cases damage has already been done and cutting away at the deposits tends to make things worse.

He made no mention of other medications, and told me that because the uric acid is coming from the bugs, to try to lessen the amount she eats and up her supply of veggies. About medicine in general, he talked about how beardies have very sensitive kidneys and that medicine sometimes causes more harm than good, and that's all he said on that front about anything other than what he prescribed for her pain. As for the Allopurinol, I'm googling it now.

She was very alert yesterday and was doing well, though I had noticed that she was taking it easy. She was fantastic at the vet and behaved like the little lady she is. Now that we know she's gravid, I wonder if that is contributing to some of her discomfort. Today I put an old shirt in her viv for her to lay on since it's softer than everything else in there, and she seemed very happy on it.

She did a lot of resting today. I think the medicine the vet gave me also says it could cause drowsiness, and she was pretty still most of the day so I figure it's related to that. She did spend hours today under the new tube bulb, and she was there until she fell asleep.

I feel really bad about the while situation. I feel like this is primarily my fault since the gout is food related. My last beardie's protein came from crickets and not dubias and he never had issues with gout, so I can't help but wonder if they're the cause or if this would have happened with crickets as well. I guess it doesn't matter now. I still feel awful about it though.

Here's another question: is there a protein source that I can give her without the uric acid?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am so sorry this has happened. Can you post a few more pictures of her, so I can fully see her hands, feet, etc?
The uric acid doesn't come from the insects really. It is due to the body's inability to get rid of excess uric acid either from compromised kidney function from genetics or too high of protein.
I have read that dubias are rather high in protein & can contribute to gout, but, not always.
Inbreeding is causing a slew of health problems in this species. I wouldn't blame yourself.
They do have a sensitive renal system. Allopurinol is designed for long term use & is normally not hard on them.
She has a great chance of getting better but you'll need to get her started on it as soon as possible.
Alfalfa meal has no purines & is a good protein source, too. The black cherry & extra oral fluids will help out.
Her being gravid is probably a bit stressful for her. If they are shelled, which they appear to be or almost, then she will likely go ahead & lay them soon. I hope she likes the new light!
I can PM you a link for the allopurinol if you need.

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie

 

[Gryphex]

I'll post some pictures later on today when I get the chance, but I would like that link, yes. I'm willing to try it if it'll help her out.

 

[Gryphex]

Here's a picture of all of her.


Front left leg


Front right leg


Back left leg (and her bulbous toe)


And the back right


At the vet's I noticed that a lot of her toes are partly swollen, though I don't believe they've gotten worse since then. I've cut back on her dubias and have only offered kale instead of the salads she was rejecting before, and she's been eating that well. Since I've cut back on the dubias and she's not getting the same amount of calcium as before (since I'm giving less bugs) I've begun dusting the kale, especially because of her eggs.

Yesterday she was wonderful. Lots of walking around and climbing and exploring my room. She was good today as well. She took some heavy steps this morning, but once she warmed up she was acting normal. I've continued to give her black cherry extract. She's been very patient with me as we've worked to figure out the dropper and also clean up the mess that's sometimes made (which looks absolutely murderous). :lol:


(This was from the first time we tried about two weeks ago.)

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Oh dear, the blood & gore! LOL
Does any of it actually get into her mouth? I hope she likes the taste of it.
Try arugula or dandelion greens, too along with the kale. The Kale is a little high in oxalates & it binds calcium absorption.
I totally think she needs to be started on the Allopurinol treatment. I will PM you the links so you can check them out. Even with a change of diet, the gout condition wont go away. You are doing great in keeping it from getting worse right now.
I am happy that she is active & running around so much. Is she gaining weight due to the eggs?

Tracie

 

[Gryphex]

Yes, she drinks quite a bit of it. We're just really messy, but it does seem like she likes the taste of it. She starts lapping it up almost right away.

She's definitely gained weight, and I'm sure it's from the eggs. When we went to the vet the first time around 4/25, she was 220 grams. When we went in last week, she was at 255!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Yeah, that sounds about right, poor thing, eggs & gout both! Insult to injury for sure.
I am glad that she likes the juice anyway, it does taste pretty good.
Overall she is doing pretty well, staying hydrated & eating then. I hope that she is able to get past the swelling from the gout. '
Keep us posted on her!

Tracie