Strongyle parasite infection

[CooperDragon]

The charcoal I have is crushed and mixed with water. it's a very small amount but I don't recall the dosage off the top of my head. Then it's administered via plastic syringe. I hope he is ok!

 

[phobosdthorga]

I'm going to have to take him to another vet, his condition is getting worse and worse. I'm so, so worried for him ;_;

 

[phobosdthorga]

My partner suggested that the medicine might be affecting Iggy's ability to regulate body temperature, because it seems he does MUCH better when hot but worsens severely so when at all cold. Is this a possibility?

 

[phobosdthorga]

Oh goodness, what a nightmare this afternoon has been. Due to how sickly and weak Iggy became, unable to thermoregulate anymore, I had to end up buying a 12-14 G crop needle with 3 mL syringe >_< I read about this beforehand but honestly thought it would never come to this, especially so early on in my care of him. My partner's mother, Deanna, did all the handiwork according to kingofnobby's help in the Beardie ER thread and Vetafarm's instructions. She did amazingly well for what is such a scary procedure and I can't do it myself because of muscle spasms that I experience, due to all the medicine I take myself. I ground up a mixture of Woodies in warm water within the food processor (another item of good planning) as thoroughly as possible before inserting 3 mL into his crop. So he might have runny feces for the next few days due to all the water content.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Sorry to make yet another post, but Iggy's condition has declined all of a sudden. He's become extremely tired and lethargic once again so I decided to give him some activated charcoal. I started by pushing the tablet on his muzzletip which he hated, but he eventually chewed up a little. I imagined that he consumed around 100 mg or so of activated charcoal.

That was a mistake , hopefully the large bits of charcoal are small enough to be passed through Iggy's GIT.

To be effective the charcoal needs to be VERY VERY FINELY PULVERISED, I mean so fine the particles are nano-meter sized , it's the very large effective surface area of the colloidal (nano-particles) of carbon that makes it so effective at taking up toxins and removing them from the GIT.

The chewed up tablets will NOT produce particles of charcoal fine enough to be of any benefit in removing the toxins .

I'd visit the local chemist and buy
http://www.purelyblack.com.au/en/activated-charcoal-clay/3-edible-activated-charcoal-powder.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIserKyIn_1wIVBiUrCh1bKAkiEAMYAiAAEgLZWPD_BwE ,
this is a very fine powder and will need to be made into a suspension in water to give orally by syringe.

this product is ground to the about the same particle size a fine flour ie 0.015 mm ~ 0.03 mm.
The finer the particle size of an activated carbon, the better the access to the surface area and the faster the rate of adsorption.

What is activated charcoal (carbon) powder? It is the charcoal made from different sources such as wood, coconut shell, bamboo, or coal, that is then “activated”, with steam or acid. This process carves away the internal structure of the charcoal particles producing a much higher internal surface area.

This “activated charcoal” is then used in thousands of applications primarily to adsorb unwanted chemicals so that they can be neutralized or removed completely ......

Activated charcoal works by trapping toxins and chemicals in its millions of tiny pores.

If the chemist has no activated charcoal powder products in stock, I'd ask to see the pharmacist and request he prepare as small bottle full of very fine activated charcoal powder - the pharmacist will have access to pure charcoal (pills/ tablets) and the facilities to ensure the powder is finely pulverized at least as finely as fine flour.

Any vet will have powdered activated charcoal in stock for sale over the counter.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Oh goodness, what a nightmare this afternoon has been. Due to how sickly and weak Iggy became, unable to thermoregulate anymore, I had to end up buying a 12-14 G crop needle with 3 mL syringe >_< I read about this beforehand but honestly thought it would never come to this, especially so early on in my care of him. My partner's mother, Deanna, did all the handiwork according to kingofnobby's help in the Beardie ER thread and Vetafarm's instructions. She did amazingly well for what is such a scary procedure and I can't do it myself because of muscle spasms that I experience, due to all the medicine I take myself. I ground up a mixture of Woodies in warm water within the food processor (another item of good planning) as thoroughly as possible before inserting 3 mL into his crop. So he might have runny feces for the next few days due to all the water content.

better than nothing .... I suggest getting a bottle of VetaFarm Critta Care
http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/vetafarm_critta_care_reptile, if you are lucky , the local vet will have this in stock for over the counter sales which will save time ...

, you'll need a 10G crop needle to draw this paste into a syringe and to give it orally ,, is thick and viscous so the bigger bore will make it flow better and faster .... I've had very good results using this to save and rehabilitate Fluffy ( my latest wild rescue see viewtopic.php?f=6&t=238063 )

 

[AHBD]

How's he doing ?

 

[phobosdthorga]

I do have a small vial of this which I just found:

I tried to obtain charcoal powder off the vet which caused this because I only have a few dollars to my name until Thursday, but they refused. The pharmacy where I do have an account doesn't have such products and they are far away, so I'm not sure what they'd charge to crush it up for you.

Iggy's improving in some ways whilst others he's getting worst, like his ability to thermoregulate. I have an appointment with a reptile vet tomorrow but I'll likely have to cancel due to not having enough money to see her either.

 

[phobosdthorga]

Well that's nice, the protein and vitamin solution I had was full of mould. Looks like I'll be opening yet ANOTHER dispute with that ABDF guy.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Well that's nice, the protein and vitamin solution I had was full of mould. Looks like I'll be opening yet ANOTHER dispute with that ABDF guy.

I refuse to deal with that guy or to have anything to do with his self promotional message board. He's in the hobby for only thing = $ as many as he can get from his little mob of groupies .

Critta Care Reptile needs to be kept long term in the fridge. I buy my supps from http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/reptile-supplies-vet-products/reptile-food-and-supplements , never had a problem with any products I've bought from them

 

[EllenD]

Oh my, I'm so sorry, I didn't get back on here since my post...at this point the charcoal won't do anything anyway, he's absorbed the Ivermectin into his bloodstream my now, but yes, for future reference it has to be a very fine powder...

How is he doing? Keep giving him lots of fluids throughout the day, and hopefully the Reptile Vet you're going to see will be able to recommend something to help him out, I'm not sure that there is a whole lot you can do but wait for all of the Ivermectin to be excreted...Did you ask the vet who did this to him what the hell he was thinking? I'd be demanding your money back from him along with him paying the Reptile Vet bill for today as well. I know money isn't the biggest concern here, but that guy needs to be held responsible, and also he needs to know to never prescribe Ivermectin to another Bearded Dragon again, least of all orally.

Keep us posted, I'm going to find texts and see what is recommended for Ivermectin overdose in reptiles, I have a database online from Penn State I can search. I'll be back with any ideas I find...

 

[EllenD]

Well, I didn't find anything helpful that hasn't already been said, Ivermectin is terrible stuff, completely lethal to any turtle and tortoises, and to chameleons, and often lethal to other reptiles when given orally, simply because there is no way to monitor the dose you give them.

Do you know what the dose of Ivermectin you were giving the roaches before he ate them? From what I just saw, orally you're looking at a dose around 0.1mg/kg of weight, so we're talking a tiny little drop of that stuff when it is given, but it usually isn't given ever to reptiles, too many variables and too many times it causes toxicity and death. IM Injections used to be given, but they didn't end well either.

The only thing positive that I read is that they don't think Ivermectin crosses the blood/brain barrier in any reptile species but chameleons, however that isn't proven either. That would mean that he wouldn't experience any CNS symptoms, but that doesn't seem to be how it usually goes. So I don't think I buy that just yet, without more research.

You're doing exactly what needs to be done, force feed nutrition to him, this will speed up the metabolism of the Ivermectin from his body, and lots of water and/or Pedialyte to keep his renal system flushed. Warmer than normal temp for him by 5-10 degrees, and go hopefully he'll be okay. I couldn't find any sort of "Antidote" that speeds up the metabolism of Ivermectin, other than just getting food and fluids into him.

I'm sorry this has happened, why an Exotics vet would chance giving that awful stuff to a little lizard is beyond me.

 

[kingofnobbys]

I urgently suggest getting Iggy to the new REPTILE VET ASAP.

A bit of research about the drug the dodgy vet prescribed ( hopefully this will help others and you might show this info to the new vet in the hope he can counteract the effects of the nasty stuff) .... I think time of the essence if Iggy has been overdosed by being given hugely more than one VERY SMALL DROPLET as the dose of Ivermectin.

Mechanism of Action of Ivermectin

As all macrocyclic lactones, ivermectin acts as agonist of the GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) neurotransmitter in nerve cells and also binds to glutamate-gated chloride channels in nerve and muscle cells of invertebrates. In both cases it blocks the transmission of neuronal signals of the parasites, which are paralyzed and expelled out of the body, or they starve. It also affects the reproduction of some parasites by diminishing oviposition or inducing an abnormal oogenesis.

In mammals the GABA receptors occur only in the central nervous system (CNS), i.e. in the brain and the spinal chord. But mammals have a so-called blood-brain barrier that prevents microscopic objects and large molecules to get into the brain. Consequently macrocyclic lactones are much less toxic to mammals than to parasites without such a barrier, which allows quite high safety margins for use on livestock and pets. A notable exception to this are dog breeds that carry the MDR-1 gene defect (see later).

Extract 1 - Acute Toxicity of Ivermectin
• LD50 acute, mice, p.o. 25 mg/kg
• LD50 acute, rat, p.o. 50 mg/kg ... closest mammalian examples given here http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2344&Itemid=2996

Extract 2 - example chosen from list in ref is birds (birds are closely related to lizards genetically)
Birds
..
•... some birds (parakeets, parrots, canaries, finches, etc.) do not tolerate ivermectin.
Ivermectin spot-ons are particularly dangerous

extract 3 - not specific to reptiles but
Toxic Symptoms caused by Ivermectin Poisoning

General poisoning symptoms

•The symptoms of ivermectin poisoning are the consequence of an excessive concentration of the molecule in the CNS (Central Nervous System) and the subsequent increase of GABA activity.
Ivermectin stimulates the release of the GABA neurotransmitter (gamma-Aminobutyric acid) in the presynaptic neurons and enhances its postsynaptic binding to its receptors. This increases the flow of chloride ions in the neurons, which causes hyperpolarization of the cell membranes. This on its turn disturbs normal nervous functions and causes a general blockage of the stimulus mechanisms in the CNS. The resulting cerebral and cortical deficits include mainly
◦Ataxia (uncoordinated movements)
◦Hypermetria (excessive or disproportionate movements)
◦Disorientation
◦Hyperesthesia (excessive reaction to tactile stimuli)
◦Tremor (uncoordinated trembling or shaking movements)

◦Mydriasis (dilatation of the pupils); in cattle and cats also myosis (contraction of the pupils)
◦Recumbency (inability to rise)
◦Depression
◦Blindness
◦Coma (persistence unconsciousness)

•As a general rule, young animals are more sensitive to overdosing, react stronger and prognosis is worse than for adult animals.

extract 4 - Antidote and Treatment of Ivermectin Intoxication
•There is no antidote for ivermectin poisoning.
•Treatment consists in supportive and symptomatic measures.
such as
•Administration of supplemental electrolytic solutions (intravenously if required)
•Keeping the animals warm ( .... for a bearded dragon who has been poisoned be careful when increasing the temperature , beyond 44 degC is getting into dangerous temperature ranges for a bearded dragon who may not be able to properly thermoregulate see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516 , I'd recommend instead of bumping up the daytime basking and warm zone temperatures by several degrees Celsius (which may well push the temperatures way too high to be safe for a sick / lethargic / non-mobile dragon) that ensuring the night time temperatures remain in the range 30-37 degC in the warm zone via a CERAMIC HEAT EMITTER or a heatpad under a layer of ceramic tiles, this will help boost Iggy's metabolic rate significantly)
•Frequent moving of recumbent patients
•Corneal protection with adequate ocular ointment
•Artificial feeding (intravenous or with feeding tube)
•Mechanical respiration in case of severe breathing disturbance.
•If intoxication followed oral administration induce vomiting, gastric lavage, and charcoal administration are often indicated. .... is likely too late to do this I expect , but the new vet may think it worth a try

 

[EllenD]

Thanks for posting that Knobbys, I read about the GABA release as well, and honestly the bottom line to this entire thing is that small creatures, no matter whether they are reptiles, rodents, amphibians, birds (big problem), etc. are too small to properly dose Ivermectin and similar poisons to, no matter what the Route of Administration is, but orally is a death sentence in about 70% of the cases.

Everything I've just read says that they believe it only crosses the Blood/Brain barrier in chameleons, but the only reason they believe this is because apparently if you give even the tiniest amount of Ivermectin to a chameleon they start to convulse and die. In addition, you are NEVER to give Ivermectin to any species of turtle or tortoise, it's always lethal whether it's given orally, by IM injection, or even given in a topical spray form, but I couldn't find any reason why.

The ONLY method of giving Ivermectin to reptiles that has proven to not be lethal in most cases has been topically to treat only mites. That's it, topical, external mites of the skin/scales. That's it. And even this isn't ever recommended or used by Certified Reptile Vets, because it is easy and readily absorbed into the blood stream when even the tiniest amount is applied to their skin.

I just read an article (Knobbys won't like this, sorry, I was horrified) where they used wild-caught skinks to test topical Ivermectin reactions. They applied these wild-caught skinks with a very low-dose Ivermectin spray, and they all eventually died, the dosage they used determined how long they suffered before they died, but they all died within 48 to 72 hours of applying the Ivermectin to their skin/scales. And it certainly sounded like the Ivermectin crossed the Blood/Brain Barrier in the skinks as well, which the "journal articles" all said it doesn't, but they all displayed some level of convulsions, lasting tremors, "Star Gazing", rolling over constantly, vomiting, and loss of all bodily functions an hour before death. They all displayed some degree of labored breathing from a few hours after application until death...Why in the hell would ANY VETERINARIAN use this poison? Especially when there are now so many other safe options to treat not only mites and external, topical parasites, but also all the GI Parasites as well? There is absolutely no reason at all to use Ivermectin anymore, not on any animals or people for that matter (yes, they prescribe it to people for topical use for skin and hair mites).

 

[kingofnobbys]

Thanks for posting that Knobbys, I read about the GABA release as well, and honestly the bottom line to this entire thing is that small creatures, no matter whether they are reptiles, rodents, amphibians, birds (big problem), etc. are too small to properly dose Ivermectin and similar poisons to, no matter what the Route of Administration is, but orally is a death sentence in about 70% of the cases.

Everything I've just read says that they believe it only crosses the Blood/Brain barrier in chameleons, but the only reason they believe this is because apparently if you give even the tiniest amount of Ivermectin to a chameleon they start to convulse and die. In addition, you are NEVER to give Ivermectin to any species of turtle or tortoise, it's always lethal whether it's given orally, by IM injection, or even given in a topical spray form, but I couldn't find any reason why.

The ONLY method of giving Ivermectin to reptiles that has proven to not be lethal in most cases has been topically to treat only mites. That's it, topical, external mites of the skin/scales. That's it. And even this isn't ever recommended or used by Certified Reptile Vets, because it is easy and readily absorbed into the blood stream when even the tiniest amount is applied to their skin.

I just read an article (Knobbys won't like this, sorry, I was horrified) where they used wild-caught skinks to test topical Ivermectin reactions. They applied these wild-caught skinks with a very low-dose Ivermectin spray, and they all eventually died, the dosage they used determined how long they suffered before they died, but they all died within 48 to 72 hours of applying the Ivermectin to their skin/scales. And it certainly sounded like the Ivermectin crossed the Blood/Brain Barrier in the skinks as well, which the "journal articles" all said it doesn't, but they all displayed some level of convulsions, lasting tremors, "Star Gazing", rolling over constantly, vomiting, and loss of all bodily functions an hour before death. They all displayed some degree of labored breathing from a few hours after application until death...Why in the hell would ANY VETERINARIAN use this poison? Especially when there are now so many other safe options to treat not only mites and external, topical parasites, but also all the GI Parasites as well? There is absolutely no reason at all to use Ivermectin anymore, not on any animals or people for that matter (yes, they prescribe it to people for topical use for skin and hair mites).

Yep --- not impressed that wild caught skinks would be tortured this way..

Other google finds were bird keepers , I saw a discussion where someone was saying 55g / Gallon of the Ivermectin (sheep drench version = solutble in water) in drinking water for budgies and finches.
ie 55g / 3.8L ==> 15g / L == > for a single animal (bird or lizard) this would be 0.015g / mL .... A VERY DILUTE SOLUTION , used for 1 day , twice per year , not something I'd do without having a proper analytic scale to weight the Ivermectin .

Is encouraging that Iggy has made it past 48 hrs since her poisoning .... not out of the woods by any means , but while there is life there is hope.