soft mushy adopted dragon

[amazonsurfergirl]

hello! i have read many pages on beardie care :study: and have come to the conclusion that the previous owners of our sweet beardie "blush" failed to give her enough calcium and heat.

she is possible 7 years old (maybe a bit older).

i am assuming she is a she because of her arm movements when she is overwhelmed.

she is 17" long with tail

her left arm looks like it was broken and healed funny, it doesn't work very well. maybe it is mbd.

her tail at the base is badly kinked. maybe it was broken and healed funny as well. maybe it is mbd.

we adopted her this new year with her 20 gal high aquarium. i would upgrade to a 40 gall breeder tank but she cant move around very well. i took out climbing decorations because they are just that to her. she cannot climb and they take up space and make it harder for her to swoosh/scoot around.

having been raised on a diet of superworms, ie candy bars, and having always been given a hideaway box, ie shaded from heat source, and kept in a 20 gal high aquarium with no room to roam, this beardie has lost the use of her back legs and pretty much her front arms as well.

i am now giving her a river rock to bask on, no more hideabox, and lots of appropriate fresh veggies and fruit dusted with calcium powder with vit d and dusted crickets. also daily outings into the sun (hurray for sunny so cal!). two times a week 1 inch or so of room temp water bathtub time.

specific q's are:

Phoenix worms: i heard about these from a friend that is a member of this site. shall i order them? are they "all that"?

calci sand Substrate: seems like everyone is still debating this everywhere (even here). i don't want her to die overnight from calcium stone impaction, but it seems she does not eat it. she is super dainty when grabbing her crickets. she was raised on sand. she cannot do her swooshy slither way of getting around on tile or shelf liner (remember her legs are sadly useless )

water: i mist/spray her, but have read they absorb nothing through their skin. hearsay or reality? should i keep misting her calcium bit d powder dusted veggies and fruit? she of course always has fresh water in her enclosure.

anything else i can do to improve her mbd? also, is there any hope for improvement, or am i just keeping her comfortable and at least not letting it (hopefully) get worse?

thanks so much in advance! can't wait to get these confusing matters cleared up for the sake of our lil' blush.

 

[munchkins9802]

Hi I would still get her a bigger cage if you can to give her more room to wander around in even if just on the floor. I would get carpet, tile, newspaper instead of sand.
. From your description it does sound like MBD. It cannot be reversed but you can keep it from progressing. I would inquire from a vet (or order thru Drache613 on here) about LIQUID Calcium.

Does she have BOTH a UVB bulb and a BRIGHT WHITE Basking bulb?
What are the temps of her cage on the cool side? What about the basking side. How close can she get to the UVB bulb? You may need to do somethign to the cage so she can still get close enough to the light without hurting herself (I think some here have actually installed the lights under the lid somehow)
How are you taking the temps--stick on thermomerer

Phoenixworms--they are great! High in calcium and protein. I get mine with NO issues from phoenixworms.com. yes costly but great for any age lizard
Superworms are fine as a staple at her age too if she eats them
beautifuldragon.org has a list of veggies that are good for them and how often they should have them.
your baths are great for her --it will keep her hydrated.

Hope this helps some. Mods should be on later this afternoon/evening and will also answer your questions

 

[amazonsurfergirl]

ceramic lamp is under the "lid" (it is a plexiglass tank with overhang on the top so no screen/lid needed). she has had sun glo exo-terra bulb which apparently gives off heat and uva (not uvb) light.

tank temps taken with probe thermometer in place for an hour before reading is taken.

cool side of tank is 80-85, basking rock side is 100-105 depending on temp outside ui

i would get the liquid calcium if someone can tell me how to get him to open his mouth without pulling on his beard.

thanks so much! can't wait to get more info

still sticking with sand becuse the carpet i fear will catch her toenails (she has absolutely NO back feet function)

thanks

talia

 

[Angiecountrygirl]

This is so SAD.
I feel bad for Blush, and her previous owners should be ashamed of themselves... I'm happy to hear that you're giving her a good life now. I do agree w/ the post above- give her a larger tank even if it's justa 40gal. breeder, she may use the room if given it. You can clip her nails (speaking of that, I need to clip Falkor's asap, lol), and changing her subtrate isn't a bad idea. Putting her on tile I would imagine would be no problem to scoot around on, it is a flat surface. I saw that she didn't have aUVB (or did I read that wrong?) - she deffinately needs one ASAP. The Reptisun 10. is the best, so if you don't have one I highly recommend it, as she needs this to help absorb the calcium and vit.d.
The liquid Calcium is an excellent idea, you can use a baby suringe that's used for administering meds to children... you just stick it in the corner of the mouth, and she will most likely open up (that's your best bet).
Good luck, and we'd love to see pictures of your little Pooper if you have any.
I'msending lots of Prayers your way that she stays comfortable and happy under your care as I'm sure you are giving her the best life that she's known. God Bless...

 

[tank4102]

yes you need a uvb -repti-sun 10.0

 

[Judah'sHuman]

Oh thats so sad. Im glade that you have her and can hopefully giver her a better life. there are so many beardies on here that have damaged limbs. LG for example has 3 totally amputaed limbs and one half amputaed limb, but he doesnt let that get him down! he is totally capable of moving around and munchin down his food!

You deff need a bigger tank. Even though she is limited on mobility the main concern is once you have the proper light and such she need to have veriable temp zones to escape the basking lamp and be able to properly thermoregulate. The possablity of over heating is greater in small tank with the proper lighting. im acctually supprised that she hasent done so since she does have the Sun basking bulb. poor lil girl

Also, I would remove the Calci sand. If you want to keep sand because it seems easier for her to get around use Washed Screened Play Sand. BTW this is SO much cheeper than Calci sand. you can pick up a 50lbs bag at Home Depot for like $6 and it wont turn to concreat in her digestive system. Since you say that she is carefull about eatting and doesnt eat the sand, you dont really need to worry about impaction. Again the play sand wont turn to concreat in the digestive system and is reccomended over Cali sand.

Do be carefull about misting your tank, as this can cause Mold to grow. I even took out my water bowl because Judah never drank out of it, really just played in it and made a mess and mold grew under it even in sand. You can however, drip water on her nose to lap off and a bathing a few times per week is the best way the get hydration other than through the veggies.

Pheonix Worms are great I have only heard of 1 beardie not liking them. I bought a whole bunch but Judah would eat them so fast and doesnt hang out in the hot zone of his basking area enough to digest them properly. Which can be a common factor with soem worms. So buy only a small amount at first and see how she does with them. If you find the worms are being digested whole then she isnt getting anything out of them. Sadley even though Judah loved them he got nothing outta them and I was stuck with hundreds of worms he couldnt eat.

I think it was mentioned??? You can also get the liquid Calcium at Beautifual Dragons.com But it wont do any good untill you get the proper UV lighting because it cant be absorbed properly with out UVB. Since it sounds like she has MBD i woudl reccomend first you get a larger tank ** and get a Mercury Vapor bulb such as a T-Rex or Mega Ray....these bulbs have the highest output levels of UVB which she really needs. Repta sun 10.0 is a good bulb but it does have lower levels of UVB than the mentioned Merc bulbs. (**you cant not use a merc bulb with anything less than a 40 gallon tank)

Good luck with your new BB

 

[romanfj]

The liquid calcium is not only fruit-flavored, but very sweet. Most dragons, once they try it, will lick it up.

You can also inject an insect with the calcium and give the bug to your beardie. This is how I do it.

Good luck!
Frank

 

[ez2bbad64]

i am sorry to hear your poor dragon is sick. its so sad! i too have a beardie who has bad MBD she cant really walk much at all she too scoots around when she tries.i also have a frilled with mbd those two are my rescues. my vet recommended the megaray the reptisun is a great bulb but if yours is in a 40 or larger it wont be strong enough! roxie my frilled has a megaray we had one on peaches but peaches has a damaged eye from a skull fracture and cant have a mega ray so she now has my couch pillows in her cage to get her closer to the reptisun.one thing i noticed helped peaches was her eating silkworms they seem to help alot with the pain. i ordered my liquid calcium and a nifty silk worm enzyme from Drache613 it was very reasonably priced and i am treating both lizards with the silk worm enzyme and calcium i havent been doing it long but peaches has better movement in her front legs she wouldent attempt to move them cuz she hurt so bad and roxies shaking has mostly went away now. its easy to give once they get a taste they will normally lick at it i put just a little on the lip then they start licking

 

[amazonsurfergirl]

HELLO EVERYONE THAT GAVE SUCH USEFUL INFO! THANKS SO MUCH!!! right now i am struggling with the fact that she is in pain. is she in pain? if so, isn't her quality of life in question?

for pain i will get her silk worm enzyme from Drache613 and maybe feed her silk worms?

& i will order liquid calcium from Drache613

i will fix lighting with the Reptisun 10 or the megaray

i will order phoenix worms thru phoenixworms.com

still not sold on superworms, everyone says they are too fatty and just for treats

i will post pics:....

trying fresh veggies and fruits cut up small, all the good ones like mustard greens and collard greens and cooked butternut squash and apples etc, all dusted with calcium powder w/ vit d, but she has not eaten any of them ever. i even put some of the squash on her snout to see if she'd lick it off or at least get a taste but didn't happen.

so far crickets the other day (2 or 3) and superworms which i am weaning her off (only have 5 or 6 left from previous owners stash and i will not be re-purchasing them)

still debating the larger cage because i am able to get 105* in the basking spot and 80* in the cool down spot. she really cannot travel far. if i see her do some traveling about when out of her tank (like when we picnic in the sunny yard or when she gets her bathtub time) i will get her a 40 +. at this point it seems like a larger tank will just keep the crickets too far away at feeding time.

DEBATING to replace calci sand with Washed Screened Play Sand from home depot. DEBATING THIS DUE TO SILICA DUST EXPOSURES CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS!!! http://www.safeplaysand.com/sandcollege.html

i would switch to tiles but she is so insanely soft bodied i feel the sand is better for her now that i know mbd is painful. it crushes my heart and spirit a bit knowing she is in pain. if it were not painful, i could find solace in knowing she is having a peaceful & full life within her capacity, but knowing it is indeed painful, i feel it is selfish to keep her alive! if her quality of life is such that there is no pain management for mbd, then she should not continue on. i remember with my dog getting very sick the last year of his life, there were three things to take into account to know when the time is to put them down:

still eating
happy to see u
pain under management

lots to do, lots to think about and discuss!

i do have pics of her, but cannot figure out how to post / attach them :?:

anyway: thanks for your time! xoxoxoxoxox talia

 

[munchkins9802]

just curious on who told you supers were only treats> I know that is the case for waxworms and butterworms.Most of the mods here told me supers are okay after 1 yr and at least 15" as a staple.

Glad to see you are trying your best. Honestly maybe get the nonadhesive shelf liner instead and line some of it with a soft towel . I would still worry about impaction esp if her poops are not regular.

I hope she pulls thru and definitely take a poop sample to the vet for a fecal test. Poor girl and Hermes understands as he has MBD as well.

 

[amazonsurfergirl]

dear munchkins 9802,

before being approved for this forum, i was told to read this forums pages on rules, etiquette, care and feeding of beardies, etc. this was on the care sheets and articles info:
http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/
http://www.kakadudragons.com/caresheet/caresheet.php

Superworms

Super worms can be fed as a treat to fully grown dragons. They should never be fed to young dragons. Super worms have a very hard and thick shell that has a history of causing impaction in dragons when fed to young animals or in large amounts. Super worms are also very fatty. You should think of them like candy bars and feed appropriately.

peace,

amazonsurfergirl

 

[munchkins9802]

amazon surfergirl
Thanks for the info. I know they tell me NOT to give the mealies on this forum. When I inquired on the mods here recently they said the superworms would be fine AS LONG as adult and at least 16" long. I was recently told (look under superworms question in feeding) that supers have less impaction risk than the mealworms. But I do agree they CANNOT be given to those under 1 yr old.

It is interesting to note that there apparently is conflicting info on this site alone. Supers and silkies and phoenix worms are all that my dragon will eat now--he snubs his nose in the air on any attempt to eat crickets. Has started eating his salad more consistently now. Thanks for the info.

 

[Judah'sHuman]

HI Talia!

Sounds like the shoping list is a gettin there and your on your way! I too have also heard about the 'healing" properties of the silkies I had almost forgotten about that! I hope that helps the poor lil girl. I woudl just see how see does over the next few weeks with the improvments you have made. you should be able to tell if she is depressed looking that her quility of life is failing...untill them i would only think about getting her better, rather than putting her down. If she was in terrable pain and didnt want to go on I believe she woudl sleep alot and not really want to eat. However, it is goign to take her soemtime to get use to her relocation and new food. They offten like red fruits like strawberries, raspberries and such. You can also try BB food in a bb med syringe and just dap it on her nose.

As far as the larger tank...I mentioned LG and his amputaitions, Jason acctually umm well removed the back legs of the crickets so LG doesnt have to chase them down to much. You can also hold them down in a spot so she can grab them easier. I can understand about the not wanting to get a bigger tank right now. I amsure you are even wondering if she is going to make it. But if she does start showing improvments and seems more alert and such a bigger tank is a good idea at that time.

Your right about concern over sand. What you want to avoid is Quartz Sand this is what contains the Silica and cause lung cancer. When i got judah as a bebe from a very nice lady, she had him on this sand. She said it was "Play sand" and had bought it from Home Depot. It was a white very very fine sand, it was very pretty so i looked and looked for it and kept finding it in places turned out to acctualy be quartz sand, not play sand as she thought. So that got removed right away. They are in the same section, but Washed Play Sand does not contain any silica it is basicly river sand. They also have "Arena Sand" some at Home Depot have told me this is "play sand" but NOPE it has lil rocks and pepples in it. So the stuff I get acctual is labled Natural Play Sand. It is fairly fine with out lil rocks & pebbles that could cause a problem. It is a little dusty when you poor it in so just keep her outta the tank for a few for the dust to settle. But again this type is harmless natural sand so the dust wont cause cancer. Hope this is helpfull

 

[randisjoy]

Hello I'm glad to see you found the forum alright. I hope Tracy or Diane reply soon to you. In the meantime, here's a link to get liquid calcium. This is a GREAT, informative site. http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Meds.html#CalciumGluconate

Since you just got her, please give her a chance to adjust and stop the progression of her disease. You will know in a short time if her quality of life is not better. I would just be so sad for her (and you and your family) if you put her to sleep so early in the rescue. I know I have no right to say that. I know it's a tough job, nursing a sick beardie, but it is SO amazing as they bond with you and start to feel better.

I know I mentioned this before but I also REALLY think you should get a UV light. She needs this light to be able to use the calcium you're giving her. It's just as important as the heat to digest her food.

As far as posting pictures, here's a link to a post that describes how. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=37103

OK, hugs to blush and you!
~Randi

 

[amazonsurfergirl]

the liquid calcium and the liquid silk worm enzyme are ordered and on their way. the phoenix worms as well.

looking for silk worms to purchase as well as the megaray and larger home.

glad to know the silk worm enzymes and even the silk worms themselves will help in pain management. the idea that it hurts her when i pick her up was freaking me out. but she does seem to be enjoying bath time and sunning in the yard.

any suggestions of best place to buy the uvb light, silk worms, and the larger home? is the 40 gal breeder tank the best re floor space? i'd love to continue to support referred vendors.

thanks to all for your support and info!

peace,

talia and blush